Jivana Heyman 0:36
Hello, welcome to our first episode of my new season of the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Chumash land, which is Santa Barbara, California, and I'm really excited about this new season of the Accessible Yoga podcast, celebrating 30 years of teaching yoga. Basically, I was just trying to think of how to make it really fun and engaging. You know, it's like when you have, like, a birthday or a special occasion, and sometimes you're kind of waiting for someone else to throw your party, and then you just decide to do it yourself, that's basically what I'm doing. I'm throwing myself a party over the entire next year with 30 guests, and you're welcome too, you're invited to the party, but 30 people that I wanted to talk to about yoga and teaching yoga in particular. And I'm excited because, you know, usually at a party, you don't get to talk to everyone that you want to, and so I'm going to spread it out and spend time with each of the guests, checking with them about how they're doing, but also kind of reminiscing with them about their journey, their path in yoga, and asking them to share a story or some meaningful teaching that is still with them today, that they're using in their practice now and as they move into the future. So our first guest is Shannon Crow, who, you know, is just such a good friend of mine. She and I chat regularly, and she has her own podcast, The Connected Yoga Teacher Podcast, I hope you'll check it out if you don't already know it, but I bet you do. She's had me on as a guest on that podcast so many times. I'm so grateful to her. We have great conversations. And so I don't know, when I started this podcast, I thought, wow, she needs to be my first guest. I want to talk to Shannon about her journey, because she's always interviewing me. So in this case, I kind of got to interview her, although, as you'll hear, she ends up asking me questions too. And so we kind of both shared. We had a nice chat. More than that, there was actually some really beautiful things shared here. And you'll see there's stories about her journey, teachings that she's really holding on to, and I share about mine as well.
Jivana Heyman 3:05
So thanks for joining us again. It means a lot to me, and just a reminder that big piece of this podcast is you, the listener. So what I'd really love is if you can go to the link in the show notes and leave a response, either in writing, or you can leave a voice message. You could just say hello. You can ask me a question about teaching yoga for 30 years, or you could share a story yourself. I'd love to hear from you. Is there a little story or a teaching that has been meaningful to you, that inspires you as you move through this present moment, and I'll try to share them on the air. So after the interview, I'm going to be joined with Deanna, who I work with, who's amazing, and she and I are going to check in about that and share some of your recordings, so please leave a recording or leave a message, otherwise we'll have nothing to do. All right. So let's get to my conversation with Shannon Crow. Thanks so much for being here again.
Jivana Heyman 4:20
I want to take a moment to thank Offering Tree for sponsoring this podcast. If you're like me, you're passionate about yoga and wellness, but running the business side of things - that can feel overwhelming. Offering Tree gets it, they built an all in one platform specifically for yoga and wellness professionals with tools like scheduling, website building, marketing, and even payment processing. They make managing your business simple and stress free. If you're thinking about simplifying your business, they've extended a special offer for my listeners, use the link in the show notes and get 50% off your first three months, or 10% off an annual subscription you.
Jivana Heyman 5:04
Hi everyone, thanks for joining me. This is our first official episode. I'm so excited to be here with my friend Shannon Crow. Hey, Shannon.
Shannon Crow 5:13
Hey, Jivana. I'm absolutely honored to be here.
Jivana Heyman 5:17
I should introduce you, but I just want to say to have you first feels really appropriate, because I feel like you've been so generous with me. You've had me on your podcast so many times. So it's like karma, right? It's like, it comes back you. And so anyway, I appreciate that. I appreciate all the invitations I've received from you. Actually, I mean, what I love about your work is that it feels so parallel to Accessible Yoga. I feel like you really are into community and and lifting other people up. And that's what Accessible Yoga is about, too. And you know, you founded The Connected Yoga Teacher this well, The Connected Yoga Teacher Podcast where I get to speak to you all the time, and you have other guests too occasionally. And of course, the Facebook group, and then, I don't know, do you want to talk about Pelvic Health Professionals? I know that you have let that go, but you have trainings, right?
Shannon Crow 6:11
Yeah. So well, The Connected Yoga Teacher Podcast and the Facebook group are all because I feel like I remember that feeling of like, oh my gosh, now what? Like, leaving yoga teacher training and just being like, oh my gosh, moment of panic. I need more training, I need more, like, business education, like, it's all very overwhelming. So that's where those things came from. And then Pelvic Health Professionals is a membership that I built up over five years specific to yoga for pelvic health and and all topics pelvic health, and then I sold that this year. So it feels like a big shift. And I do want to say the reason why we have you out in the podcast so often is because I'm like, I wonder what Jivana thinks about this? That's why!
Jivana Heyman 6:56
That's so nice well. Well and you and I do actually talk a lot offline as well, like, not necessarily on the podcast. So I think that I often tell you what I think about things. Tell me what you think! Especially around politics, I think that's an area where we really have a lot in common, just that kind of the intersection of yoga and social justice and politics. And I just love your activism, and the way you've been speaking up for Palestinian people, in particular, the last year, and just how devoted you are to that, just the ethics in yoga and how important that is, how central that is to the yoga teachings. And I know we've talked about that many times on your podcast, but I just wanted to mention it again.
Shannon Crow 7:42
Thanks. I certainly don't feel like I that wasn't like, oh yeah, that's what I'll be doing nine years later on the podcast. But to me, it really feels like that feels like yoga, to me, like really taking the teachings of yoga, and then, how do those apply to life? So.
Jivana Heyman 8:03
Yeah, how amazing is that? You know, to actually apply the teachings. It actually feels to me like the most, almost the most respectful way of practicing yoga is to live it and not just talk about it for practice once in a while, but actually bring it into our lives. So I really, I think it's, it's very, I don't know what the word is, respectful is that, you know, keeping it alive. I think it's beautiful.
Shannon Crow 8:31
Well I also want to say it's very messy.
Shannon Crow 8:33
Yeah!
Shannon Crow 8:35
You've seen me at some of my, like, it might seem unyogic, but I feel like that's the way humans are, we're pretty messy, and, you know, we have to have, like, a a peer group that'll say, hey, hold on one second. Like, maybe this part of yoga is what you could focus on, or this awareness. I don't think there's anybody walking around...I know there's people walking around who are like, I have it all figured out. I'm enlightened, but I don't think that people actually are living that.
Jivana Heyman 9:07
I don't know any of them! Or at least no one I know. I think it's, yeah, I'd be wary of anyone who says they're enlightened, to be honest. I think humility is the practice. So it's like, you know, be humble. But yeah, I think community is key, and having that like sounding board of peer support, that's part of what this new podcast, is really about for me, too. When I thought about how I want to celebrate 30 years of teaching, I immediately just thought of other teachers and people that I'm inspired by and people that I'm still learning from and learning with, and you know, like what we just said, people I can talk to and check in with, were the first on the list of people that I wanted to talk to. So here you are!
Shannon Crow 9:57
I'm so excited.
Jivana Heyman 10:00
So in each of these episodes, you know, I was just gonna ask kind of a very vague and broad question, and I know for today, you're also maybe gonna turn it around and ask me questions, but can I ask you first? All right, so basically...
Shannon Crow 10:17
Sure! It's your podcast, you're making the rules!
Jivana Heyman 10:19
Ok good. I'm not used to it. I'm used to you being in charge. You know, you interview me all the time, so I'm used to that. So it's confusing. All right, the question is, what's a story, teaching, or practice from your past that continues to inspire you as you move forward on your path of yoga? And I know that's probably a huge question, because for me, there's like, there's so many that come to my mind, but I just wonder if there's one that maybe comes to you, that you're willing to share?
Shannon Crow 10:46
Yeah, for sure. There's one that popped into my mind right away. It feels really small, but it keeps coming back. Like, when I'm interviewing people on the podcast and we're talking about the philosophy of yoga, and sometimes, like the eight limbs, or there are different times when this, like one meditation that I did, comes back to mind. So I was in my very first 200 hour yoga teacher training, and I found out later that like the teacher that I was driving three hours to meet up with actually lived about 30 minutes from my house. She was also driving to Toronto, Sat Dharam Kaur, she's a naturopathic doctor, and she is a kundalini yoga teacher. I wonder if she still calls herself that? But she was a teacher who really encouraged us to question everything which is important when you come from the Kundalini tradition. Her teacher was Yogi Bhajan, so, yeah, so that's a whole other topic. But anyways...
Jivana Heyman 11:50
But well, we should say, though, that he was abusive and so there is a, it's another topic, because there's a lot of baggage there in that tradition, as there is in almost every tradition of yoga.
Shannon Crow 12:01
Yes. So we were sitting and doing meditation. I remember thinking, I have a lot of things to like sort through in my mind. I had three little kids. I was like, had a busy life, and I just remember thinking, it's fine, I bet we have, like, a long, 30 minute meditation, and I'll be able to like, sort through everything at that time! That's how my brain was as an early yoga teacher.
Jivana Heyman 12:27
That's still how my brain is.
Shannon Crow 12:32
But when I sat in meditation, I couldn't... like it, you know, that's why it's called a practice. Like you do it, and pretty soon you sort of have this like, oh, you actually are right there in that present moment, hopefully for part of it. So I wasn't able to, like, get through my to do list in my brain, but there was this moment of, I can't even remember if we were doing, like, some movement with the hands, which Kundalini will do over and over again. But I just remember the visual that I hold now is like holding your fist and like, not. The whole thing that came through to me, and this is the weird thing about yoga, I don't know if you have the same experience, but like, I remember having this realization, "Shannon, if you hold things so tightly in your fists, sort of, you can't receive. Like, if you're so busy holding on to everything, kind of like a control thing that I've, like...it's been a coping skill. I go to therapy. So like a control thing, of like, releasing, then you'll have your hands open for other opportunities." And that was like this light bulb moment, like it helped me in my relationship, in my parenting. And I'm not saying that in every moment I think back to that, but it was this moment where I was just like, oh yeah, if I keep gripping everything, I can't be open.
Jivana Heyman 14:01
That's so beautiful. And I laughed. I just wanna say I only laughed because I feel it myself. I just think it's... I don't know if everyone does it, but I do. I mean, definitely try to control things. I mean, how else can we handle the challenges? You know, it's like, trying to control, it just feels, yeah, feels like human nature. But that's such a beautiful story. Wow. Thank you for sharing that.
Shannon Crow 14:27
Yeah, and that's the thing with yoga, I feel like it's so personal and so subtle. Do you find that? Have you had moments of meditation where you're like, I can barely put this into words?
Jivana Heyman 14:38
Oh yeah, definitely. Oh yeah. That's, I think there's a lot of yeah, a lot of it is beyond words, for sure. Sometimes it's emotions, you know, I think that's a big piece for me. It's like, that's why I kind of laugh too when you said it was a time to process. Because I have to say, I definitely use my practice for that, you know, processing time for my feelings and sometimes for thoughts, you know, to, like, go over things. But I try not to, I try not to let myself do that kind of planning and stuff in meditation. But it's just natural. I think it's like my mind knows, okay, this is time, there's going to be time here, so I want to use it and be efficient or something. Yeah, another kind of control, but I try to watch that happening. But yeah, definitely beyond words. I think, yeah, that's a beautiful way to say it. But I like that you had an image, though, of holding tight like a fist that's so clenched that it can't receive and I think that's just actually, really, that's a powerful image,
Shannon Crow 15:48
Yeah, that's really stuck with me. Like, I'll be talking to different teachers, they'll talk about aparigraha, and I'll be like, I feel like that's my, that's my moment of that.
Jivana Heyman 16:01
Yeah, paragraph like non hoarding or not not grasping actually is another. That's a great word, because grasping is like that clenched fist, holding on for dear life. You know, it's like, ah! Yeah, I get that feeling too. Wow. That's so beautiful.
Shannon Crow 16:19
Yeah. And I also will say, I'll also add to that, like we did 40 day sadhana. So like 40 days of the same practice, the same meditation, and I feel like I was, you know, my brain does not really appreciate that at the start, like I just want something different every day, something unique. Like, ooh, I'm learning something new. I learned a lot sticking with the same thing for 40 days. So, you know, I just feel like it was a real gift to learn from Sat Dharam and her to kind of say, all right, let's see, and let's journal and let's talk about it at the end of 40 days. It was...I liked it a lot.
Jivana Heyman 17:09
Wow. When you think of that story now and kind of looking ahead in your life, does it hold value for you, like, is that something that you're working on, still? This idea of not grasping or is that how you would call it, you know?
Shannon Crow 17:32
Yeah and not trying to control everything, oh my gosh, yes. I always tell my kids that, like having kids kind of knocked it out of me, because, you feel like you have no control. I mean, it's just sort of like parts of your heart out in the world, you know, doing their thing. Yeah, definitely for that. And also this year, I'm trying to sort of let go of control and see where I'm going. I put it out there that, to myself, and like, a few close friends in the podcast, whatever, I want to work with people, connecting them with nature, gardening, and pollinator plants. Like, that's it. And to not have a set plan of, like, here's what I'll be doing every day to make that happen. That's a little difficult for me like, to not make the plan.
Jivana Heyman 18:32
Yeah, and it's interesting, because, in a sense, what you just described was having a general plan or like concept, like, I don't know what the word is, but it feels different. I do think we need kind of, like, a general direction that we're moving in. I want to be doing this. Like, that feels important. And like you said, it's not like, the details don't need to be known always. And that's kind of how I work too. Is like, I try to have a clear idea of what I want to be doing, generally speaking, but I do try to let go of the details. And I totally agree. I think it's parenting that really helped me do it. Just, yeah, my kids constantly, even today, you know, they're just constantly showing me that, like, I don't have control. You know, but I bet there's something I can do. And so there's like, you know, what is the part that we can do? What is the like, positive, I don't know, I hate to use the word intention, but there is something about having a direction to focus on with our attention and intention and our energy that I think is important. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's not like we just kind of give up all together.
Shannon Crow 19:48
Yeah. My grandparents were foster parents for teenagers for like, 25 years, and so watching the with a little less...I don't want to say attachment, because they got very attached to these kids. But like, you know, you can have a little less when, when you haven't, like, birthed them, and you're just trying to do your best. Watching them show up with, like, loving kindness all the time for these kids, but also trying to figure out how to help them show up in the world really inspired me. And when I get very stuck in, like, parenting, which still happens, then I usually need to have a look inside and be like, okay, what's going on with me in this? Like, why am I kind of grasping and trying to control something?
Jivana Heyman 20:45
Yeah and usually, what is it like some emotional thing? Like, it's just like some fear, like, what is it that's...?
Shannon Crow 20:54
Yeah, maybe. Maybe? That's a great question.
Jivana Heyman 21:00
I guess that's for your therapist. I don't mean to pry.
Shannon Crow 21:04
Therapist or the yoga mat! Or a little bit of both. Okay, I want to ask you the question. I am so curious right now. Like, okay, I'll ask you the question, but I do have another question already. So what's a story teaching or practice from your past that continues to inspire you as you move forward on your path of yoga?
Jivana Heyman 21:27
Okay, but can I just go back for one minute? Because I wanted to say I was thinking about this whole thing, you're talking about non grasping, which reminds me a lot of non attachment, you know, from the Sutras and Patanjali talks about non attachment, there's a, I think it's Book One, Sutra 15, where he says, "It's a manifestation of self mastery in one who's free from craving." So he talks about non attachment as a manifestation of self mastery and then being free from craving. So I just want to say, I just want to go back to this idea and kind of show how it is revealed in the yoga teachings. This idea of having kind of a general purpose, but also being free. So there is, there is a certain amount of work we have to do on ourselves to get to that place. And that's what he's saying, you have to have self mastery, you have to actually be working on yourself consciously to have that freedom. Anyway, I just want to mention that.
Shannon Crow 22:27
I love it.
Jivana Heyman 22:28
Yeah, thanks. So, yeah. So I should answer your question, let me see, my own question! I have so many stories. I mean, that's part of why I asked that question because I, you know, as I mark 30 years of teaching, I just been thinking about the past a lot. And I tend to not do that, I'm not someone who tends to dwell in the past, or even I don't have a very good memory, to be honest, and I just kind of like to live in the present as much as I can. But I realize there's so much value in going back and looking at what I learned and trying to remember so I don't have to keep repeating my mistakes over and over again, you know? So I'm really trying to grasp that. One of the reasons I write so much, actually, is because writing really forces me to remember things, and it's a kind of memory, writing itself, right? You have this thing written down, and I've been writing the current book I'm working on is like a lot of stories have come up for me. So I was thinking about the one that came to mind immediately when you asked, it's not well, I'm trying to think of a particular moment. But I was thinking about my first official yoga teacher. Her name was Kazuko Onodera. I learned yoga from my grandmother, but then in my early 20s, I actually went into a real yoga class. And because my grandmother wasn't a yoga teacher, she was practicing and she taught me. But later, I kind of went back to yoga anyway, I was very lucky to find this teacher, Kazuko and she, she's the one who really took me under her wing and, like, showed me what yoga could be. She had a very, what's the word, comprehensive, holistic practice herself.
Jivana Heyman 24:12
She had been practicing for a very long time and I was so lost. I was, I was an AIDS activist at the time, and I wasn't, I didn't know how to and I was like, a young adult, so I didn't really know how to be in the world. You know what I mean? I was like, I needed to, I needed more parenting. And she really did that to me. She showed me a different way that I could care for myself, like we would, most of the time we would spend together would be gardening. Actually, that's what got me into gardening, was being with her for years and years and cooking. We would spend, like, not right away, like I went for classes, but then we became closer, and she let me come over and I would just like, hang out with her and we would spend the day literally gardening and cooking and practicing yoga and meditation. And she also, she was a master of the tea ceremony, Japanese tea ceremony. She was Japanese, and she would do that tea ceremony, which is such an incredible practice. I think it's a Zen practice. It's really mind boggling, actually. Have you ever followed with a tea ceremony?
Shannon Crow 25:21
No, tell us about it.
Jivana Heyman 25:22
Well, she wouldn't, she never taught me how to do it so much. She would let me watch sometimes, one time I got to be the guest, which was, like a huge honor, you know, where she would prepare the tea for me. But it was just kind of like a thing that, you know, I got to watch from the side, like, how she would prepare sometimes and then do it for others. I think I assisted her once. It's basically a it's a mindfulness practice. It's a meditation practice of preparing tea and serving it, basically. And that's, that's what it is. But it's done in such a specific and conscious way, you know, where every step is done with complete attention, and that's where the mindfulness comes in. But you're completely, like, focused on these, like, preparing especially I noticed, the way you prepare the utensils and wash them and treat them with such care. And then, you know, prepare the water and the matcha tea. And then you have a special whisk, and you make it into this very special, like the way you whisk it is important, and the amount of foam it makes. And like, every single thing, the way you hold it and the way you serve it. I mean, it's like so detailed. It's really incredible. Anyway, I just I'd never seen anything like it. I think I just never been exposed to that kind of consciousness before her, like that, just kind of awareness of how our everyday activities can be a meditation and a spiritual practice. How you can, like, turn, you know, gardening or cooking or making tea into a spiritual practice. And it just, like, it just blew my mind.
Shannon Crow 27:18
I'm so curious if you felt that when you were out gardening?
Jivana Heyman 27:23
With her I did. She had such love and care and kind of humor, and there was just, like, a way. I mean, she was a very, like, everyday person, she was a very not, I don't know what the word is like, I don't know she was just, you know, very... what is the word?
Shannon Crow 27:44
Like, approachable?
Jivana Heyman 27:44
Yeah, she was just like a regular person. But when she was doing activities, I think because of her experience and how much she had practiced, there was just such attention to care and detail. So everything was done in a very conscious and slow way, and that included gardening. So it just, you know, her garden was a little, to be honest, it was a little messy.
Shannon Crow 28:07
Oh I love to hear that!
Jivana Heyman 28:07
Because, you know, I became a professional gardener later, and partially inspired by her and just her love of gardening. I had never really been exposed to gardening, very, maybe very, very little growing up, my parents weren't really into it, and my mother loved flowers, but never really gardened. We had house plants and stuff, but like to actually be in the dirt with Kazuko was really special. It was almost like it was a garden that had once been very controlled and then was like, kind of, you know, wild. So you would find things like, you would just be walking along, and all of a sudden there's, like, raspberries were growing, you know, like, what? Do you know what I mean? Or just be like, those aren't weeds, that's collard greens! You know, just randomly everywhere there was, like, something that maybe she forgot or had grown or spread, you know, from somewhere else. And, you know, California, it's like, that's the big challenge here with gardening. It's year round and it tends to get out of control. There's just a lot of the climates are so conducive to plants growing that it can be a problem. You know, it's likethey don't rest, there's no dormancy. They just go, go, go. And it can be exhausting for the plants and it can make a mess. So a lot of gardening here is constantly cutting things back and controlling them and trying to tell them it's okay to rest now, you know, it's winter. Roses, especially, you know it's like you have to prune the roses because they'll just keep growing year long and then they get weak and kind of sickly. So you have to cut them hard, but not because of any weather, really, except maybe moist air, they don't love moisture that happens in the winter and most of California, well, most of the coast of California. But it's just like, let them rest, let them have a break, so that they have a little more strength for bigger flowers in the spring, right? Is that what you're asking me?
Shannon Crow 30:11
I love, like, there are so many lessons, I think, out in the garden. But I'm so curious, like, well, I love that her garden was messy. And I also, I feel like this with age that I see the value in, like, slow gardening, slow cooking, but it is not really celebrated in a capitalistic society.
Jivana Heyman 30:41
God, no. It's all about production.
Shannon Crow 30:45
Yeah. How is that helping you now, then?
Jivana Heyman 30:50
Well, it's funny that you that you focused so much on that messy part, because it's true, I say how controlled she was and careful and at the same time there was this kind of chaos happening. I think she was okay with that too. It was like she wasn't trying to master nature, you know, or have it be perfect, right? It's what we're talking about before, a little bit, which is like she had the intention of garden. Of things that I like to have around me, but it didn't always...it kind of just happened. Like there's a natural kind of evolution to it, kind of like with parenting or something. It's like, I want my kids to be happy, but the way they do it, I'm pretty much open to however that goes.
Shannon Crow 31:32
Right! You like collard greens and if they're going to grow everywhere, well...and if they're going to cross pollinate with other...well, I can't do anything about it!
Jivana Heyman 31:47
Actually, it was know that I think about it, it was more mustard that was just wild.That mustard would take over, you know, which was harder to eat. It's very spicy.
Shannon Crow 31:54
It is. I have some mustard that just grows wild.
Jivana Heyman 31:58
Right, and because the animals don't eat it, it's just everywhere because bunnies don't want it. Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back a little bit to what we talked about before. I mean, I I think the main thing that I saw or learned from Kazuko was that, the finding the spiritual in everyday life. To bring mindful awareness into everything that I do, and at least to try to. You know, and it's an ongoing challenge. Also, I think, to make life sacred. Because I feel like, as I get older, I sometimes feel like I have to, like I'm trying to achieve something, right? Like I'm trying to get something done or to get a certain place in my life, or some kind of success, you know, like I have these kind of big, I don't know what, ego ideas. And I try to let go of them and recognize the sacred. Meaning that, like, it's important and beautiful. This right now, like, this thing is enough and more than enough, it's it's amazing, Whatever it is, this meal, this conversation, this view. Whatever that moment has, like, it's incredible. And so to celebrate more of this moment, I think, is a way to get my attention there. Do you know what I'm saying?
Shannon Crow 33:35
Yes. Yes, I sure do. And I think that when you said, like, as you age, I mean, sadly, I could have used that wisdom, like earlier. Earlier in my life, would have been more helpful, because I feel like a lot of the time we're focused on like you said, like, the success, like, here's a marker of, oh, you've really made it in the world. Like for you, you're writing your fourth book?
Jivana Heyman 34:06
Yeah, my fourth book.
Shannon Crow 34:06
Yeah, and lots of people might be thinking, oh my gosh, I want to write a book. I want to do that. Then I'll feel, like, if I got a book written, then I'll feel successful. And you can probably attest to like, it's not like the finished product in your hand that is, like, the moment where you felt something.
Jivana Heyman 34:24
Yeah, it's just so easy to get caught up in that. I mean, there's something beautiful by having a finished product, like a book. I think it's great to celebrate that. But also the process is really amazing and I think it's dangerous to get too stuck on that one thing, that one idea of the thing that will make me happy, it's such a, it's an attachment. It's a, it's an illusion in the yoga teachings right, to be attached to some external thing. Because yoga says happiness arises from within us, joy arises. So it's like, that's the practice is, how do we, how do we experience that aspect of ourselves? Do you know what I mean? How do we have this internal kind of well of joy, rather than this constant seeking? Just like in Buddhism, same thing, that suffering arises from, that, you know, from desire, from looking outwards. Which is normal. I mean, I do it all the time, but I just try to... Like what I'm saying, that the thing I learned from that, from Kazuko, and I think that I'm trying to remember more and more, especially as I get older, is to celebrate and make it sacred. Make everything sacred. Every action can be sacred. How can we do that?
Shannon Crow 35:49
I also love how you said that you needed some more parenting, because I feel like it wasn't until the last five years in my life where I realized that other adults, it doesn't really depend on age, but I think it's definitely helpful if they've had a lot more experience. There are other adults in my life that definitely are like parent figures, even if it's really tiny ways. And you know, I was having this weird thought the other day, I was watching Ted Lasso. Have you watched this? And I feel like I was just like, I feel so good watching that show. I realize it's fake, whatever, and he's not like a real person. I think he's based on a real person. But I don't care. I'm like, I love that he's, like, super involved, really positive. Also isn't perfect. And I was thinking, like, there are things that we can learn from other people, or books or art that people have produced. To like, to think, there's some aspect to that that I really respect.
Jivana Heyman 37:07
Oh, to like someone else's story, you mean, or like, from...?
Shannon Crow 37:11
Kind of the way they show up in the world. Like, it sounds like your first teacher...You were also really honored that you got to hang out with her outside of yoga class.
Jivana Heyman 37:24
Yeah, yeah that was really special. I think because I was so young, she realized that I was needing that. She saw that I was lost, and so she kind of let me become her apprentice. And it was also, it's kind of like a Japanese thing, like, I literally became her apprentice. Like, I would spend a lot of time with her, just assisting her, like, assisting her teaching, assisting her doing whatever she was doing.
Shannon Crow 37:50
Were you living at home at that time?
Jivana Heyman 37:52
No I wasn't. And I was actually, well, it was, you know, it was an old, another timein life. I mean, it was probably 1990s.
Shannon Crow 38:03
Oh the 90's!
Jivana Heyman 38:06
I mean, yeah, it was 1990 to 1994, probably. For about four years. And she started training me to be a teacher. And so then, I mean, the sad part of the story is that I kind of gave up on her. I just said (I didn't give up on her, I mean, we stayed in touch) but I basically said, you know, I really want to teach. Like, I started getting impatient and after four years of doing this, like, very, very amazing and useful kind of apprenticeship, I said I just want to teach now. I feel like I'm ready. And I felt like I really wanted to share yoga with my community of people with HIV and AIDS that I was working with around ACT UP, I was involved with ACT UP. So I decided to go take a 200 hour teacher training. And she was really mad. She was really mad at me for doing that, because she felt like I had left, like, we had an agreement and she was training me, but incredibly slowly. So I went to take this teacher training, and they thought I was so amazing at the teacher training, because I was, like, I was very young, and I had all this experience, but it's because of her, like she had already been training me. They didn't know, really, I mean, I told them, but they didn't really recognize the training I had received, which I think really did give me a great foundation in teaching. My 200 hour, you know, was quite limited. So, yeah, I always kind of regretted that, but that's funny, this year we're celebrating the graduation from my 200 hour training, which kind of makes me a little sad.
Shannon Crow 39:38
Oh, wow!
Jivana Heyman 39:39
It's when, you know, I had kind of left her and gone off on my own.
Shannon Crow 39:43
You know, like, isn't that also, though, what does happen when we, like, break free from parents? Like, I think there's a lot of yoga teachers who can like, I remember I left the Kundalini tradition after that, and was like, I'm gonna go teach hot vinyasa flow! I feel like it was my rebellious teen, even though I was older than a teenager, but that phase of yoga, I'm just gonna make it mine.
Jivana Heyman 40:12
Right? I was, right! I was very young, and that's exactly what I did. It was like, I'm done waiting, I'm just going to go teach now. Which is just so funny, it makes me laugh too, because I was so shy and afraid and uncomfortable teaching. But it just felt, I was just so drawn to it. I'm such an introvert, so it was really a challenge in many ways. But, anyway, I feel grateful to her. I mean, she passed away quite a long time ago, so I'm sad about that. I miss her, but she had such a huge impact. Thank you for asking. And of course, we've gone over our time. I was trying to keep these conversations pretty short.
Shannon Crow 40:52
Okay, but I gotta say one more thing as a parent. This story, like, illustrates how important it is to not take it really personally when you're like, she sounds amazing, she said, like, you realize how amazing she is now, yeah. And as parents, you know we could be like, I'm gonna mindfully make this cake with my child, and they're gonna be like, I just want to eat cookies.
Jivana Heyman 41:18
Yeah and they're gonna yell at you why they throw stuff all over and run out the door. Yeah, it's true.
Shannon Crow 41:26
Oh gosh, I love that story. I'm gonna think that anytime I'm like, I have a different idea. Yeah, okay, sorry, I have to stick to the time.
Jivana Heyman 41:36
Well, no, it's okay. Anyway, thanks, thanks for being here. Also, I mean, it makes sense that we talk longer. It's the first real episode.
Shannon Crow 41:45
I want to say congratulations. 30 years of teaching yoga is amazing!
Jivana Heyman 41:50
Yeah I guess, it's a long...
Shannon Crow 41:52
How does it feel?
Jivana Heyman 41:54
I feel old.
Shannon Crow 41:58
Thanks for being honest! This is where you get to like, you could become a, you know, like, this is where you get to just be, like, just because of my age, I have more wisdom now.
Jivana Heyman 42:10
That's I was gonna say. I mean, age doesn't always bring wisdom, but I think it can. It can, maybe, if we're paying attention. I mean, it feels good to have been doing something for 30 years. It's funny because I also, I had met my husband, Matt, I had met him just, like, well while I was with Kazuko, training with her, I met him. And then I, so I became a teacher, so he and I have been together now 32 years. So it's really parallel in a way, like that was a big time for me, my early 20s, meeting Matt and becoming a yoga teacher. It's like, that was it? I stuck to this thing!
Shannon Crow 42:53
Right! Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Well, huge congratulations. I can't wait to see what the next 30 years is going to bring.
Jivana Heyman 43:01
Oh wow, okay, if I'm around that long. I guess, yeah!
Shannon Crow 43:08
We'll do another podcast then.
Jivana Heyman 43:10
Okay, in 30 years. I'll see you in 30 years! All right. Well, thanks, Shannon. Thank you for sharing your story, also. I'm going to think about that grasping. It's so beautiful. And yeah, thanks for joining me for this special, special episode. Yay!
Shannon Crow 43:30
Yay! Thank you. I can't wait to hear the rest of them. Thank you so much.
Jivana Heyman 43:34
All right, take care.
Jivana Heyman 43:35
I want to tell you about our sponsor, beYogi, which is the insurance company I've been using for years. It's designed specifically for yoga instructors and wellness practitioners like us. You're covered for both professional and general liability, identity protection, and coverage for both online and live classes, which I love. Plus they have free webinars to keep you informed and inspired. So head over to beyogi.com/jivana to get $20 off your beYogi insurance membership. Protect your practice and your peace of mind today.
Jivana Heyman 44:21
Okay, welcome back, everyone. So this is a new adventure, this portion of the podcast is something new we're trying out. And my hope is that we can have a more, I don't know, like active conversation. What's the word? I don't know what to call it, but basically, I'm here with my friend, Deanna. Do you want to say hi, Deanna?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:56
Hey everyone!
Jivana Heyman 44:59
Deanna has actually been helping me with marketing and all kinds of communications for I don't even know how long. How long now?
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:07
It's been three years.
Jivana Heyman 45:08
Oh, gosh. Okay. Anyway, do you want to introduce yourself, Deanna?
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:12
Sure. Thanks, Jivana. My name is Deanna Michalopoulos. My pronouns are she/her. For half the year, I am dialing in from Lenape and Canarse land, which is known as Brooklyn, New York. And I am a writer and a content and marketing strategist, and it's truly the honor of my career to be able to support Jivana, you know, relay his message over the airwaves and multiple platforms. And it's kind of fun to be here, and also a little scary, because I'm usually way behind the scenes.
Jivana Heyman 45:43
I know, so I'm definitely pushing you to be more in front. Here we are, being on the mic, instead of just supporting me in the background, which you've been doing so well. So I mean, I don't know if people know what that work entails, but I mean, you really helped me think through all the marketing that we do and design, which is beautiful, like her amazing graphics that you create for us, and edit my writing, and usually find writing and like improve it. So my writing that I do, you know, for not only my weekly newsletters, but a lot of my or most of my social posts, if not all of them. So you're like the other half of my brain. It's, you know, two is better than one.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:34
I have a good time working with you, because I feel like, you know, coming from, you know, way back when, this feels like another lifetime, but like a corporate background, there's so much time and energy that goes into something before even doing it, and that has its place. But in this world where a lot of it is happening on social media, it's really fun to be like, hey, do you want to try this? And I feel like we're kind of two kids hatching a plan.
Jivana Heyman 46:57
Yeah here we are. So this is happening right now, spontaneously. We don't have much of a plan, although this is my plan, then maybe you can help me, like usual, help me communicate this better. But I would just say like, my hope is that, rather than just sit here and talk, which is what a lot of podcasts are, where people just talk, talk, talk. You know, it's nice to have conversations, like I just recorded an amazing conversation with Shannon Crow. But also, I want to talk to you and I want to talk to our listeners, and so that's part of what we're going to be doing here. This segment is going to be a time for questions and comments from our listeners. How do we, how do you feel about that? And what would you say?
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:38
I love this because it reminds me of growing up when my friends and I would get together and we would call the local radio shows and we would try to request songs because we really wanted to be on the radio, and so we were waiting with the tape recorder like paused, but also record. So if one of us popped on, we could unpause it and show up. But I feel like this is such a cool way to interact with people. I think it's also very intentional. I know you're going to talk about our portal in a second, but to really have people like, you know, we're so used to seeing things on social media, which is awesome, and now we can hear everyone's voice, you know, as they submit questions and feedback and have a dialog in this way. So I think it's pretty cool.
Jivana Heyman 48:22
Yeah, I'm excited about it, and I hope it works. So if you're listening, I hope you will help me and Deanna by submitting your comments and questions. There's two ways that you can do it. We have forms in the show notes for the podcast and also on the landing page on our website. There's a Google form where you can submit written questions written questions, if you like to write, or comments, doesn't have to be a question. And then there's also a link to a voice message system where you can record a short message or question that then, also you could give us permission to play that on the air, which would be really fun, like Deanna said, to hear your voice and to have your ask your question on the air, and then we'll try to answer. So, yeah, what do you think? I hope people do it? Do think they will?
Deanna Michalopoulos 49:15
I think people will. And it's it's not only limited to questions, right? People can make a quick comment or respond to something that was said in the podcast or share a very short story, which I think is pretty amazing to be able to communicate this way.
Jivana Heyman 49:31
And so already, what comes to mind is the question that I asked Shannon, and that then Shannon asked me, and then I'm going to be asking all of our guests, at least, that's the plan in this whole series, is to ask people to reflect on some teaching or example, you know, in their life that is really having an impact on their practice now or as they move into the future. And I feel like we all have those experiences. You know, we all have these kind of moments that really stand out to us that influence the way we not only we practice, but the way we perceive ourselves in our lives. I mean, I think that's why we're practicing so much. So people are welcome to share those stories or ask anything. You can ask about the episode, or make a comment about the episode that you listened to today, or anything else. Any other thoughts, Deanna?
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:23
Jivana, you just had your first conversation with Shannon Crow. Do you have any reflections coming out of that conversation?
Jivana Heyman 50:30
I mean, it was amazing! I couldn't believe, first of all, I feel so excited about this series. I wasn't sure, you know, I wanted this to feel different. I didn't want this to be just a traditional podcast where it was like people coming on and kind of just marketing themselves, marketing. You know, or like, selling themselves and their thing. I really wanted it to be more of a conversation about practice and what we've learned, you know, because the people I'm having, almost all of them, have a very long experience with their practice or their teaching, and I would, I'm really hoping, and I know, that they will share really useful stories. And already Shannon did, I mean, I was so moved by the stories she shared about her experience in a yoga class, grasping with her hands and how she had to let go and trust, and that was just really moving to me. And then she asked me about, you know, my experience, and I talked about my first teacher, Kazuko, who was just made such a huge impact on my life. So I'm just excited to explore those experiences and memories. And I think that's kind of the idea about this whole, like I said, this whole project, and the idea of celebrating 30 years of teaching, for me is also really looking at what does it mean? Like, I don't think 30 years by itself is that meaningful, but if I've learned something, then it is. Do you know what I mean? If I've actually gained any wisdom from that, then it's useful. Time itself just passes, right? We can't help that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:06
And I love that you're kind of, retracing these 30 years by celebrating story and storytelling. Like there's so much richness and then that harkens back to, like, the history and the roots of yoga, so much was shared through story, and so that's what I really love about this concept, and everyone you'll be talking to and all the stories we're going to hear.
Jivana Heyman 52:28
Yay! Me too. I'm so excited. Anyway, please leave us a message, leave a voicemail or a written message. I would love to hear from you. And thank you, Deanna, for being willing to be on the mic instead of in the background, and to support me with this. And also just want to thank our entire team at Accessible Yoga, who may not be on the mic, but I just want to mention, you know, Robyn and Brina and Zane and Becky and all these people that support us. It's just means a lot to me. And then everyone who's listening, thank you again, so much for taking the time to listen to this and again, send us your feedback. All right. Thanks. Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:12
Thanks, Jivana, til next time.
Jivana Heyman 53:13
Okay. Bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
