Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello and welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm your host, Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Chumash land, Santa Barbara, California. It's been a rough couple weeks. We've had a lot of fires here in Southern California, and you know, we're a little bit away from them here, about 75 miles north, well northwest of LA here in Santa Barbara, and a little bit of smoke. But I have lots of family and friends and community in LA, and so I'm thinking of all of you. Hopefully everyone's okay and recovering. I know there's been a lot of problems, a lot of challenges. I ran a fundraising class for raising money for different charities in the LA area, you can still access that class even though it happened already. You can watch the recording and donate to any organization of your choosing. It's available on our website at accessibleyoga.org, so hopefully you can do that. And if you were impacted by the fires, just come and take the class. You can watch the recording, it's a couch yoga session, calming, relaxing practice to help settle the nervous system after such a challenging time. So my thoughts are with you. My heart is with you, anyone who's impacted by those fires.
Jivana Heyman 1:59
So, I wanted to come on and say how excited I am about this podcast. You know, even though there's been kind of chaos going on around here, I feel just really inspired by this new series. I had such an amazing conversation with Shannon Crow in the previous episode. Hopefully you've listened to that. I loved it so much, and I'm really excited about this episode today, I'm joined by my friend and colleague, incredible teacher, Indu Arora. And you know, Indu is just so special. She's so brilliant and knowledgeable and such an incredible source of wisdom. She really holds this tradition with so much care and respect, but she's also very humble, and that, to me is, I think, why I love her so much. You know, I'm just kind of tired of yoga teachers who put themselves up on a pedestal. I mean, we kind of have to do it for marketing. I get it. I do it myself, sometimes, selling myself, which, you know, much to my chagrin, I have to do. But to me, humility is really the key. And so I see that so strongly and in Indu and I just want to mention that here before we start, how much I appreciate that aspect of the way she teaches and shares and carries herself in the world.
Jivana Heyman 3:20
So, I also really appreciate how vulnerable she is in this episode, what she shares with us so freely about some of her challenges, especially when she was younger. It's so relatable. So I'm excited for you to hear that. And again, it makes me just really excited about these conversations, because this is exactly what I was hoping for. I was hoping that this would be a chance to get a little deeper insight into some of my favorite teachers and people I love in yoga, to have them share a little more of their background and their journey, which I find so inspiring. Honestly, it really keeps me going. So I think I'm just doing these interviews for myself, because I really need, I need this. I need this conversation, you know, it keeps me going. And I also want to thank you, our listener, because we got a great response to our request for comments and questions and reflections. I asked if you would share, remember, we have two ways you can share. You can submit a Google Form with written comments or questions, and you can also leave a voice message. And we got a lot of them. Thank you so much. They were just really amazing, and I only am able to share a few on each episode, so please be patient with me. It might take some time to get to your response, but I will eventually.
Jivana Heyman 4:42
Today, we share at the end of the episode, Deanna joins me, and we share a voice message from one of our listeners, so excited to share that with you, and also a written question. So please continue to submit them. I love to read them and I'd love to hear your reflections on the kind of overarching question of this podcast, which is really about what is it that you found in your journey that is like a special precious jewel that you're holding and that supports you as you move forward in your life? There's so many for me and I shared, I share them throughout, so I'm going to, just maybe, for today, say that during this time, you know, when there were fires happening so nearby, I was really thinking a lot about my practice and how much I rely on that steadiness to support me during challenging times. I'm just feeling grateful for having a spiritual practice, for having faith. And I just I know that it gives me a lot of solace when things are stressful and challenging. And I just hope that's also there for you, you know, especially if you've been struggling during this time. So, all right, thanks again for being here. I really appreciate it. And here's the interview, amazing conversation, really, that I've had with Indu Arora.
Jivana Heyman 6:15
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Jivana Heyman 6:56
Okay. Hi everyone, thanks for joining us. So nice to be here with you and my special guest today Indu Arora. Hi, Indu.
Indu Arora 7:05
Hi, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 7:05
Thank you so much for being here. I just want to introduce you briefly and, you know, it's hard to introduce you. I know you'll want to say you're a student of yoga. That's all you'll say. But I have a lot more to say. I want to talk about your books, three, right? Is it? Do I have more? I have three, so I don't know if there's more. So three books we have, of course, Yoga - Ancient Heritage, Tomorrow's Vision, which is beautiful, and Soma - 100 Heritage Recipes for Self Care, and Mudra: The Sacred Secret. So you're the author of three books at least, and I know many, many, many more coming. And also yoga therapist, an amazing teacher and source of incredible wisdom and knowledge, and someone I turn to for that knowledge. But also just because you're my friend. So I mostly appreciate that about you. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being my friend.
Indu Arora 8:00
It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to find friends.
Jivana Heyman 8:05
It is, and we do get to talk, you know, offline, which is so nice. You check in on me, and I try to check in on you. And it's nice to just talk to you about what's going on in our lives. And you know, a little bit about yoga, but a lot about, you know, how to be in this world, how to be a responsible and, I don't know, ethical holder of this, of these teachings, and a person who can share it with some, I don't know, kindness and respect and love. What do you think about that?
Indu Arora 8:41
Well, I think ethics are a work in progress. You know, just like we work on some practices, I think the most important thing is ethics. And it does take time, and it does take a sense of responsibility. I mean, it brings so many thoughts in my mind when we talk about ethics, and it's like, it's a constant reminder.
Jivana Heyman 9:05
But I mean, that's really how I would introduce you, to be honest, is very ethical. I really appreciate that about you, that you have such a beautiful way of holding the teachings and seeing your place. I feel like, so often these days, as a yoga teacher, we're supposed to be selling ourselves and putting ourselves first. And I know just that you always put the teachings first, and you don't really, I don't think you want that spotlight, honestly. That's the feeling I get.
Indu Arora 9:39
Well in this time and era when things have to be communicated in a visual way, in a written way, in all possible formats, it's impossible to not put yourself out there. But is it something that I want to do, that I wish to do? No, I do not want to be remembered. This is the truth. I just hope that those moments that are moments of sharing, honest moments of sharing with those who are looking forward to embodying yoga teachings, in those moments, whatever little I could share with honesty, I hope that participants remember that. I'm not, it may sound very interesting and weird, but I'm not looking for followers. I'm looking for sincere heart, sincere minds, and maybe in this journey called life, we have meaningful moments together.
Jivana Heyman 10:40
That's beautiful. I mean, what else is there to have? You know, because once we're gone, we're gone, and you might as well have these moments, right, be in the present and enjoy. Enjoy it. Enjoy the teaching, enjoy sharing. I think that's beautiful. Yeah, I appreciate that and I appreciate your the emphasis on the ethics as a process too, as an evolution. Because it seems to me like sometimes in the yoga teachings, ethics are put out there, and they seem so concrete and like, I don't know, like it's black and white, and I just feel like it's more like you said, it's, I don't know what the word you used, but it's a practice. It's something you work towards. So I think that is much more accessible to think of ethics in that way.
Indu Arora 11:26
It's not just accessible, it is real. If we want to keep yoga in yoga, we cannot sideline the philosophy. I would say that I am learning about it constantly. It's not a definition that you learn, you know, it's not a word that you find the meaning of or the synonyms of. It's something that unfolds, that helps you see your own shadows from time to time, and the desire, the constant desire, to work towards it. I mean, it reminds me so many incidents from my childhood related to ethics, you know, even up till the time I first met my teacher, whom I stayed with. And if I think of it, the entire story of my life in yoga is a story about ethics. It's not a story about asanas or pranayama or this technique. It has been lessons on ethics from the beginning, whether lessons from my father, from my grandmother, from my guru. It's just been that.
Jivana Heyman 12:32
Well, I wonder if you could share a story with us, because that's the question I'm asking all of my guests on in this series. You know, as you know, I mentioned to you before we started that I'm doing this podcast in a selfish way. Two selfish reasons. One, I just like to talk to people who I like talking to, like you. It's just nice. I talk to you anyway. Now we're recording it, but normally we don't record. And then also, I wanted to spend time myself this year to celebrate 30 years of teaching in reflection. You know, just to spend this year really looking back, which I don't like to do often, but I feel like I want to look back and think, what are the, what are the special moments that have really, I don't know what the word is, not formed to me, but stay with me that support me and keep me going now and into the future. And I wondered if there's one story or more you can share? Maybe something you're willing to share that you think of or that you that is really meaningful to you now and as you move into the future.
Indu Arora 13:44
You're right, there's more than one. I'll have to pick one.
Jivana Heyman 13:50
You can pick more than one, it's okay.
Indu Arora 13:55
Well, you know, it's a story of what we call it as aparigraha, and, you know, santosha. You know something around those lines. And I was a child like, I think I was about five years or four years, living in a joined family, 15 plus people, you know, living all together. And my grandmother used to go to the...
Jivana Heyman 14:20
Joined, do you mean because of generations?
Indu Arora 14:22
Ah, one, two, three, four. Four generations.
Jivana Heyman 14:27
Four generations meaning living together? Okay, because joined in the West would mean like step parents and remarried. That's not what you meant.
Indu Arora 14:35
Oh! Right, yes. My grandmother, my father, his siblings, siblings' kids. They were married, their kids. So, uh huh, yeah, so that kind of joined family. [Big family] Anyways, my grandmother used to wake up really early, when I say early, around 4:30am. And she liked to have company walking to the temple that she used to visit, and not just company, she liked to pick fresh flowers, jasmine in a basket, hand woven basket made by her. And she used to bribe me. I cannot even tell in, you know, I cannot even translate what that number is in dollars, but let's say half of a cent, or maybe 1/4 of a cent, something like that. I was bribed with that much amount. I was bribable with that much amount at the age of four or five, she used to keep it in my palm, make me form a wrist and say that the bribe was so that I can wake up in the morning, at 4:30am, shower, with my hand, with my hairs behind the ears, because she likes to look at the entire face, because that's how it should be. And then you walk with her, pluck some of those jasmine flowers to offer to the deity.
Indu Arora 15:55
For her, it was Bhakti Yoga. But for me, it was, you know, you know, just...but, okay, that was the starting. I can look at it as, I was bribed for that 1/4 of a cent or 1/8 of a cent, but that did leave an impression in my mind of her dedication, of that feeling, of that misty mornings, that walking barefoot into the temple. I used to go and sit in the lap of this statue. You know, of this sculpture. I did not know anything. But the point is that, for me, that was also introduction as I look back into what is Bhakti Yoga. And fast forward it to another story, when I actually lived with my teacher. Now this time my age is 19. And it's a very, I don't know, I think I was very lucky to have this opportunity to study in traditional guru shishya parampara, an opportunity to live with my teacher. But I was still 19, you know, still a teenager. So even though I was, in some ways clear that I'm here to study yoga, but the gravity of what it means, what is yoga? What does it require of you? Did I realize it? I don't think so.
Indu Arora 17:19
So here she is, and she is 85 now still teaching about six classes every day, five days a week. I just returned visiting her, you know, from visiting her, she still continues that. But at that time, I had the opportunity to attend all her classes, which she used to teach about eight classes every day, five days a week, and she has been doing it for decades now. But here's what I did instead, Jivana, in the first three days, I slept. I slept through in the mornings, got up whenever it's convenient, and went to the yoga class whenever I'm ready. She observed my pattern. And third day, she knocked in my room, stepped in and looked into my eye, and she called my name Indu, and I was sleeping at that time. This was early morning, I think, around 4am, and just her voice was enough for me to wake me up. So I stood up, and she's like, you are here to study yoga. I'm going to only remind you three times if I see you doing something which is not in alignment to why you are here, I will only remind you three times. Rest is your karma.
Indu Arora 18:46
So that, I would say, woke me up. After that, she never had to wake me up. I was awake at 4am, I used to go clean the yoga room decorated with flowers, light a lamp. But the point is, I think someone can only wake you up if you are asleep. Someone cannot wake you up if you're pretending to stay asleep. I think I was asleep and her voice really cracked open something in me, for me and gracefully, luckily, I took that moment sincerely. Seriously. And that changed my life.
Jivana Heyman 19:33
So that, when you mean someone is asleep versus pretending to be asleep, you mean that it's something that you really wanted, you just didn't know how. And so she was showing you the way, she was making you an invitation. Come. And you took it, because you could have ignored that invitation and made some kind of conflict in your head and try, you know what I mean, tested her and this whole thing, right? But you just took that invitation and kind of ran with it, like, oh, okay, you know, like someone showed you an opening that you wanted, the direction you wanted to go.
Indu Arora 20:09
Yes. And also Jivana, the sense that she had no agenda. It's also that moment was a moment of purity, recognizing she has nothing to gain here, she is acting out of selflessness, out of that sense of responsibility, accountability that this person has come to my place to study, there is a certain responsibility that falls on that teacher. She could have let it slide, but very lovingly, very respectfully, she put forth this that I'm just going to remind you three times, the rest is your karma.
Jivana Heyman 20:51
Okay, can I ask you, did you ever go against her wishes after that?
Indu Arora 20:57
No.
Jivana Heyman 20:58
Never? [No] Okay. Wow, you're...
Indu Arora 21:01
It's not because, I was a rebellion child, let me tell you that. Someone tell me, don't do that, I will do that. But it's just there are certain relationships where you don't, where I personally feel, it's my limited experience, that where the other person doesn't have to prove themselves. You just know, we can call it soul connection, we can call it karmic connection, we can call it by whatever name feels right to us. But it is that kind of connection with her. I know that if she's going to say something, she doesn't have anything to gain out of it, and that connection was established very quickly, and it has been what now I'm I'm 48 now. I met her when I was 19. More than half my life I know her. There was no need to challenge her unnecessarily.
Jivana Heyman 21:58
You're lucky. You're really very lucky to have met her and to have a teacher like that. In the last episode, I told a story about my teacher. I had also, I mean, my grandmother taught me yoga when I was a young child, too. But then I found a teacher when I was, let's see, I was 23 and her name was Kazuko Onodera in Berkeley, California, and I had a very amazing experience with her. I mean, I went every day. I would just spend all day with her. She let me just kind of come into her life. And I spent four years with her. But then, and she really taught me everything about yoga, but then I kind of, I don't know what the word is, I decided I wanted to be a yoga teacher before she thought I was ready, and I went and took a 200 hour training. And I feel like I went against her wishes. And so it's something that I always regret, you know. And then she passed away, you know, a little bit after that.
Jivana Heyman 22:58
So I don't know, it just makes me sad that I didn't spend more time with her, you know, that I didn't have that, the patience, you know, it's very it's very much how I work. Just do it. I just wanted to do it. I just was ready to teach and to share. I just wanted to share desperately, because I had been an AIDS activist and I felt that I was not really effective anymore doing the angry part of like the marching getting arrested over and over again, and once it dawned on me that I could teach yoga to my community and share with my friends. And so I was desperate to do that. And she kept saying, yeah, not yet, you know, she just wanted me to slow down.
Indu Arora 23:46
There are teachers that I have met in my life, which I can say I had brief brushes with them, not quantity time, quality. I remember them by a feel of their presence, and that feel of their presence continues to transform me till date. How I felt in their presence, that itself was a teaching. It's just, I think such teachers are, such people, I don't think they take the title or role that "I am a teacher." I think such beings are far and few in between. And when we meet them, it is not about the amount of time that we spent with them. It's just, I feel those people are like touchstone, parasmani, that the moment you come closer in their presence, something transforms. And I felt that with the teachers I have met in my life, and I really mean it, that these are just stories of yama and niyamas. These are not stories of asanas and pranayama. Of course, I learned all those practices with my teachers too, but it was more about constant reminder of moral compass.
Jivana Heyman 25:11
That's beautiful. I'm wondering...the thing, one of the things I think is really special about you, I don't know if you're willing to talk about it a little bit, is just that you have this very traditional, kind of, and vast knowledge of yoga, but also your relationship is very modern, I think. You know, like, being queer like me, and I just feel like I don't know how you like to talk about it, or if you, I know you do talk about it, but I just wondered about that, like about how do you feel about that? Like you're, is it a conflict to you, or do you feel like it's...?
Indu Arora 25:52
I do not see it as a conflict at all. I think sometimes you're right. Sometimes when someone is a traditional teacher, or in their mind, whatever is the definition of tradition. Tradition is mixed with being orthodox. Tradition is mixed with being conservative. I don't think of yoga or Indian tradition from that lens, truly speaking. I think Indian tradition, the values, are very progressive. Of course, we can interpret them in the way we like, for fitting into our lives, but those values are progressive to start with. If we talk about yoga, we don't see people as binary, male, female. We see people really, the whole definition is seen through the lens of soul. I do not see it as a conflict in any possible way, being in love with a woman or being married to a woman, I think it has, it's just the openness of mind. I've never seen it as a conflict and but yes, I have absolutely observed that there is that assumption that, if you're traditional, how does that fit in your life? Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 27:17
Yeah, that's interesting. To me, I feel like there's something about being gay or queer that has helped me in my spiritual path, that has actually opened my mind more. I feel like I have a certain perspective. Because I remember growing up feeling like I was different, and I knew that, and I wasn't sure how. You know, I always felt different than everyone, but I think that's a blessing, because I think I question everything, and I tried to analyze everything and understand it. And so I feel that that is kind of part of my personal, the way that queerness has impacted me and my spiritual journey, is in a very positive way, offering a lot of analysis and creativity too. I feel like there's a creative energy that I have found through my sexuality that feels really essential to spirituality. You know? I don't know if that make sense?
Indu Arora 27:18
No, no, it does. See, by saying that I don't feel in conflict, I'm not saying that I have not faced any challenges. What I am saying is I have not felt that to be in conflict with yoga values. I don't find that conflicting with tradition or Indian values. That does not mean I have not faced challenges. Of course, I have faced challenges in life, but
Indu Arora 28:48
it is,
Indu Arora 28:51
I really think that, you know, it is...yoga, if at all, yoga teaches us, it teaches us a sense of tolerance, acceptance, openness of mind, understanding. Let's talk about the first principle, ahimsa, non harming. [Yeah.] Non harming doesn't start with others, it starts with, first being truthful to yourself that are you harming yourself, you know, by suppressing who you are? So yeah, I see this as two different things, but I absolutely do not find any conflict in, oh, I'm a yoga teacher, or I'm someone teaching yoga and ayurveda, and, you know, I'm married to a woman. So.
Jivana Heyman 29:36
Has it been helpful in some way? Has it been has it helped you expand your mind, do you think, be more open?
Indu Arora 29:44
Hmmm, that's that's a good question. I don't think so. I think I can say that, I don't want to over speak, but I think I've been open minded, so it is not something that has made me more pen minded about yoga, or in yoga, maybe more sensitive, but, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 30:05
But I was thinking in your own practice, maybe you said it in a way about accepting yourself, because that's what I hear you saying, that there's just in your personal practice that being a little different has supported you in some way? That maybe you've had to consciously go through that acceptance. I don't know, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I had to, let me just say that. Like I had to, there was a time, you know, when I was trying to come to terms with being gay, and I had to learn to accept myself. It was a very conscious thing I had to do that. I think most people maybe don't, maybe they do. But, do you know what I mean? I had to learn to love myself again.
Indu Arora 30:49
If, I mean, if I'm understanding what you're saying is, you know the times when I've faced challenges related to my sexuality, it is the practice gave strength. You know, it creates such a rock solid foundation. It makes you, in some areas, so rock steady that this is the place where no one can move me or shake me or break me. So I think the practice gave me that, a clear mind and a solid foundation that the things I'm clear about are the areas where I'm it is unshakable.
Jivana Heyman 31:31
Mmm hmm. That's beautiful. I appreciate you sharing about that. I wonder any other, any other stories or teachings that come to mind that you'd want to share?
Indu Arora 31:41
Well, you know, the last time I met my teacher and went to stay with her, very focused, you know, when I went to her at the age of 19, I did not even know what I was getting into. But this time I went to her, you know, let's say 19 years later, 20 years later, this time a little bit more clear that, oh, now I am a student of yoga, and now I'm sharing yoga. So now when I climb those stairs to her house, you know, this is a different person climbing the stairs, and now I will dedicate that time not in sleeping, but making notes and studying with her. So I go to her, single minded focus, that this is why I'm here, and I go and attend the classes. No one has to wake me up. So once those classes are over, my teacher, she sits down with me. I mean, where she teaches and where she lives, this is, think about it, the same floor, two separate places, and it's not too much of difference. So we come back home, and she sits down and she's like, so what do we do the rest of the day? I'm like, I'm just here to be with you. I'll be like, your tail wherever you go, I go and I don't have any plans. I don't have any agenda. So that afternoon passes, next day, all the classes, I attend all the classes, make my notes, we have lunch. She asks me again, so what do you plan to do today?What's your plan? And I'm still definitely focused. I'm here to study. Here to make notes. Whatever you say, I'll do that. She looked at me and she said, What yoga, yoga, yoga? It's like, you're so boring!
Jivana Heyman 33:30
She said that?
Indu Arora 33:31
She did! She did say you are so boring. You don't want to go out, you don't want to do shopping, you don't want to roam around? And you know my mind, what what I'm trying to share with that is sometimes we get so hyper focused that we become so serious about some things, that we forget that life is not to be taken so seriously. That does not question your sincerity towards a certain subject. You're being light hearted. And I'm a playful person by nature, but, you know, I went into that state of mind that 20 years later, now I am this person, and I'll go with this attitude. And she, to think about people whom we really consider teachers, not people who give themselves the title teacher, people whom we really consider teachers, you know, we confirm the title teacher, they somehow have a different level of experience. They can see through you. They can see what are your loopholes, what are you missing. And she saw through me, and they have a way to to crack you open whenever you get into that rigid mode or whenever you're missing the point that it was not that making those notes was about yoga, and I know that I know better. But sometimes no how much we know better, we can be caught in that rigid point of view, into that hyper focus, into that unnecessary seriousness.
Jivana Heyman 35:11
So, yeah, that there has to be, I mean, the point is to find joy, right, to have that a beautiful experience in life. And it's, I mean, is that what it is that's just trying to show you? That's the whole point, is to enjoy.
Indu Arora 35:26
Or you can learn from anything, that yoga is not about practices and techniques or something that you do in a confined place, be it a mat or no matter what is that surface where you practice, it is how you live your life. And see, I think, if I share this story, this moment, to 10 different people, they will have 10 different things to say, and each one will say and hear it from based on where they are in their life, and take their lessons. So I don't know if I can tell you what it meant, for sure, writing on a piece of stone and making it that this was the lesson. Now, I think there was a lesson that derived, that I derived from that experience at that point in time. And maybe if we meet, if we talk again, Jivana, five years later, I might interpret that moment in a totally different way and that's the beauty of it, that the meaning of what you are studying changes with time.
Jivana Heyman 36:31
That's beautiful, and that that really helps summarize, you know, again, the point of this podcast and series, again, is that it changes over time. And so it's really fun to reflect and hear your stories and share mine, and to kind of just go back and think about the lessons that I've learned, and what do they mean now, and how do I feel about them today? And how are they going to help me tomorrow? And that's, that's really the point, right? It's like, how do I, how do I live my life, I guess, right? How can I, how can I be, how can I actually enjoy life and also be of service at the same time? Well, I just want to thank you. Yes, please go aheadNo, go ahead. No, no, I'm just saying that. I hope I did not do a lot of teaching. [A little bit!] I shared something about myself. I know that we were having this conversation right before you hit record, that the purpose is that if you can share something about yourself, because you tend to teach. So I just hope I did not do a lot of teaching here in this time together!
Jivana Heyman 37:33
Well I think it's funny, because again, I think I see in you something I do myself, which is just that I would just prefer to talk about the teachings than about myself. And it's beautiful and I really love that about you. So thank you. Thanks for sharing though I do. I appreciate what you shared today, some really beautiful stories. So I don't know if you shared them before, but I feel very, very honored that you shared them with me and with anyone who's listening. So thank you so much. Thanks for that and for everything that you do, honestly, and for talking to me, being my friend. So thanks, Indu.
Indu Arora 38:09
It's a pleasure. Congratulations for these 30 years. I hope that you continue celebrating 1000s and millions of moments that lie ahead, and may this foundation of 30 years only lift you up, and you lift so many others. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 38:25
Thank you. Okay. Bye.
Jivana Heyman 38:44
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Jivana Heyman 39:35
Welcome back, everyone. Here we are ready for the second part of our episode today, and Deanna is here with us. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 39:43
Hey, Jivana! Do we have a name for this little section? Are we like after hours?
Jivana Heyman 39:48
Sure, what did we call it? This is the question and answer portion of our episode, and then we actually have a bunch of questions. But before that, I just want to say, what do you think of that episode with Indu? Wasn't that amazing?
Deanna Michalopoulos 40:03
Incredible episode. It's not often that you get sort of these personal stories from teachers. And the quote that I'm still sitting with is, "You can only wake up someone who is asleep, not someone who is pretending to be asleep." I feel like I'm gonna gnaw on that one for a while.
Jivana Heyman 40:20
That is so good, I know. That really stuck with me, too. Yeah, she's incredible. Gosh. Thanks again, Indu, if you're listening. That was so nice, so nice to talk to you. And I loved hearing those stories, too. And it made me so excited for the rest of these episodes and for all the people I get to talk to this year and ask them that question. I love this concept of having people share some motivating story or experience. It's just so fun for me, so. But like I said, we got a bunch of questions. I'm so grateful and surprised that people really responded. We have a bunch of voicemails and written questions. It's almost overwhelming, but thanks for submitting them, everyone. So how are we going to do this?
Deanna Michalopoulos 41:09
Let's start with the first question that came in. The most enthusiastic person submitted a question first, and this first question, Jivana, is, how do we fit a full yoga class and provide an authentic and profound experience in 45 to 60 minutes?
Jivana Heyman 41:25
That's a good question. Yeah, that person wrote me on Facebook too, so I think I know a bit of the background. They were concerned about the fact that yoga classes seem to be getting shorter in the last decade, and it's true. Like the way I was trained, it was an hour and a half, and nowadays, usually it's less than an hour. I actually kind of like the shorter classes, to be honest. I think they're more accessible for a lot of people, not just because people are busy and don't have time, but I actually think sometimes just energy and attention is easier less than an hour. And you know, oftentimes, when I'm teaching Accessible Yoga, the classes would be shorter, even really short. I actually think you can have a really powerful session in 20 minutes, half an hour, easy. I think it has to do with what's appropriate for the students that you're serving, and that really depends. Some people need more time to kind of regulate and, you know, be present, but some people can do it pretty quickly. So I don't know. I think it kind of just depends. That's my, it's kind of a mushy answer.
Jivana Heyman 42:38
Maybe I'll just say one more thing. I think the question is how do we do it? And I think that you just do your best to make sure you're bringing in the fullness of yoga whenever you teach. So maybe letting go of some of the asanas and thinking about bringing in a good amount of pranayama, which I think is really powerful, breathing practices and meditation or relaxation. I have a little tool that I use sometimes, I call it 555. This is when I when I want to encourage people to do their home practice. I say do five minutes of asana or movement, five minutes of pranayama, breathing practice, and five minutes of meditation or relaxation. And if you do that every day, you have a really full personal practice, and that's only 15 minutes a day. And I think part of it's because the power really lies in those subtle practices. If you can get yourself to do the pranayama and the meditation or the relaxation, there's incredible benefit there.
Deanna Michalopoulos 43:36
I think that even as a practitioner, you know our lives are so full of distraction and screens and notifications, that dropping into a practice for five minutes and creating space around yourself to experience yoga is actually quite profound. And then you know that could allow for longer practices. I love that 555, concept, because no matter how busy we are, we do have five minutes here, five minutes there. Add on another five minutes.
Jivana Heyman 44:06
Yeah. The other part of that question, I would just say, for me is that, you know, I think our students will find us, so I think it's okay to teach longer classes, and, you know, to offer different things in the world. Maybe some places you offer short classes, some places longer and to be flexible. Sometimes we get stuck because we've done something the same way for so long, or because we were trained to do it a particular way. But I think flexibility and creativity are really at the heart of this practice, and are so often lost. So I think as a teacher, just be open, try different things. Know that your students will find you.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:44
Jivana, do you feel like your practice, like duration varies from day to day, or do you have a pretty regular practice in terms of the length of it?
Jivana Heyman 44:52
Well, you know, I divide my practice. I have, like my subtle practice separate pretty much from my physical practices. Like I do pranayama meditation and that does change a little bit. Some days, I just don't have it in me to sit for a long time. But I do sit every day. Some days it just goes longer. And then often I do asana later, usually in the afternoon, to be honest. I just find that my body wants to move, I'm more flexible in the afternoon, and often I'll go for a run or do some weightlifting and then do asana with that. But so yeah, I don't know. I guess there's some flexibility there. I think the issue to me that's most important is being regular about it, and then maybe letting go of the length, but just making sure something happens every day, there's some practice, for me.
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:46
That's right, it makes it hard, I know that modern platforms too, sort of favor shorter practices, and so if students are kind of circling a website looking for a practice, often, they'll choose the shorter one. But at least it's a way to get a practice in every day.
Jivana Heyman 46:05
Exactly. [To develop that.] Yeah, that's incredibly beneficial. I do think, I think in the long run, it's more beneficial to do shorter practice almost every day, and it doesn't have to be every single day, but I would say almost every day, than to do a really long practice just once in a while. I mean, a really long practice once in a while is nice, but I also think having some consistent small practice or shorter one is really important.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:34
Well, thanks for that answer, Jivana. I know that we have additional questions that we'll continue to answer in the coming podcasts. [Yeah.] And well, we wanted to share a voicemail that we received. We also received several voicemails and we'll be sharing those. Should we share one now, Jivana?
Jivana Heyman 46:53
Yeah, let's hear it! I love this.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:56
Okay. This voicemail is from Alka, and here it is.
Speaker 1 47:04
Hi, what inspires me to continue to be on this path of yoga are my journey and how it began, which began with my parents. They were 75 at the time, I had just become newly certified with my 200 hour I'd gone to their home because I'd seen them slow down, and I put out their yoga mats and props and said, "Come on, let's do yoga." And they looked at me as if I had four heads, and said, "No way. I have this, and I have that, and I have this and I have that." And I realized, wow, how could yoga not serve this population, you know, the aging population? And so I happened to go to a retreat at Kripalu and a meditation retreat, and I found Lakshmi Volker, Get Fit Where You Sit Chair Yoga. And I took the training in that and and it's been amazing journey to be able to serve yoga for functional aging. And I've continued with working with amazing teachers like Dr. Stephanie Moonaz and Carol Krucoff and I am just so grateful to be able to be inspired by my students every single day that I teach. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 48:31
Wow, that was great. I love that comment, and thank you, Alka for sharing it. And you know, it's so funny, I almost feel like I could have paid Alka to do that, because it's just perfect timing. We have an Accessible Yoga for Older Adults, it's a new training that I'm starting, like right away. I think probably the week of this podcast coming out is when we start the first, the first session of this new training. And so please go onto our website. Check it out, Accessible Yoga for Older Adults. I'm really excited about in fact, we have a bunch of the teachers that you mentioned joining us. You know, we have Stephanie Moonaz and Carol Krucoff. Actually, Liz Oppedijk, who co wrote Lakshmi Volker's book on Get Fit Where You Sit, is also one of our teachers. So, and I love Lakshmi's work, but anyway.
Jivana Heyman 49:24
I totally agree with that sentiment about sharing yoga with older adults, and that's such a great story about your parents, they're lucky to have you. I just feel like, as I'm getting older myself, and you know, watching what happened with my parents, it just feels like we have such amazing tools and practices that can benefit people as they age. And I just feel like there they need to get out there more. I also feel like there's a lot of conflicting information in the world about what's appropriate for older adults in terms of yoga practice and so what I'm hoping to do in this training is really address some of the misconceptions or confusion that exists in the world regarding how to serve this population and ourselves. So a lot of this is for me and for my students and for you, but I love that dedication and that focus of your work, Alka, so thanks for sharing that with us. Yeah, what do you think, Deanna?
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:21
I was going to say that you have a free session on Friday as well. The first session of this course is free. So if anyone is just interested in learning a little bit and trying it out, that they should join us. And do you know what you'll be talking about on Friday?
Jivana Heyman 50:34
I mean, I think what I'd like to do on Friday is give kind of an overview of this topic, regarding the big questions that are out there in the world about how to serve older adults with yoga, especially around physical practices, you know, and that's mostly what people think of when they think about yoga is asana. And they're just some big questions, like, how do you practice if you have osteoporosis or arthritis and kind of like, who doesn't, by the way, as you get older. Almost all of us have some issue going on. So I kind of wanted to talk about that, just like the big picture issues that are concerning older adults. And also I want to give a little bit of an overview of the course and talk about how I framed it, which is, we're going to go through the koshas, you know at different levels of being, looking at the physical body, and also then looking at the subtle, energetic body. How we support ourselves, with pranayama, breathing practices, and then the mind, the mental body, looking at meditation and yoga nidra and practices that we can use to support ourselves mentally and emotionally as we age. Also looking at the more subtle bodies, like the vijnanamaya kosha and anandamaya kosha, the bliss body.
Jivana Heyman 51:49
The other part of the training is to, I want to give really practical support for yoga teachers so that they can serve this population. I'm going to have prepared a bunch of sequences that I think are appropriate for older adults depending on the level of ability, because that's the main thing to consider here, as it's such a broad spectrum of ability when you talk about older adults. So we can go all the way from chair yoga to mat practice and everything in between. And so I'm going to give a lot of different options for that and help people kind of get the basics down, so that yoga teachers feel prepared. We also have great guest teachers coming who can talk about exciting topics, like we mentioned a few of them already, like Stephanie Moonaz and Carol Krucoff. It's just such a beautiful faculty. I'm really excited to create kind of an overview and a course that can help older adults themselves who want to learn about how to practice safely, but also yoga teachers that are serving these communities. So I hope you'll join me. And like Deanna said, please join me for this free session. It should be lots of fun.
Jivana Heyman 52:10
It's important to serve this population because of what's called the silver tsunami. Do you want to explain a little bit about what that is?
Jivana Heyman 53:05
Yeah, I mean, that's just basically a the this idea that there's a wave of older people coming in a lot of places around the world, that populations are aging dramatically, and in some in some countries, like in Europe and the US, even, I believe in Japan, it's like less young people and more old people. And so it's like the population shifting from majority of younger to majority of older. I think that's what they're referring to in this about the silver tsunami. And I think it will overwhelm some societies, because there's going to be a lot of older people to support. But I also think it's an opportunity. I think with age comes wisdom, potentially, not always, and I think we need to care for ourselves and our elders in a more thoughtful, loving way. And so I guess part of my intention is just to bring some more consciousness to how we're serving these communities as yoga teachers, in particular.
Jivana Heyman 54:08
You know, I think sometimes, what I see happening, is sometimes older people attend classes and really try to fit in to, like, a quote, regular yoga class. You know, they don't want to sometimes you don't want to admit to what's happening in our lives. We don't want to let go or else, maybe even we're grieving the loss of some of our abilities as we age. And I think it's nice to create a supportive community that is respectful and kind and also acknowledges the process of aging, which can be really challenging, physically, mentally and emotionally, and spiritually. And I think that's the part that's kind of remarkable to me, is, what does it mean spiritually to address aging in a conscious way? I think part of it is even to talk and think about dying and the fact that we all have limited time here, and how are we going to spend that limited time and energy that we have? How can we engage the body and mind to the best of our abilities while we have one, you know, to make the most of the time we have here? So I don't know. There's just so many issues that come up for me around aging. Again, I'm, you know, I'm 57 and I feel that. I feel that that's coming for me.
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:26
It's coming for all of us. We're lucky if it's coming for us. That's what I think.
Jivana Heyman 55:32
That's true. So it's not a bad thing. And I guess that's part of it too, is to really think about it in a different way. To share the challenges and the joys of aging, I think both are there. There's a peace of mind that I think can come, that I find as I get older, I've been able to let go a lot of things, a lot of obstacles for me have just kind of dwindled away. A lot of insecurity and doubts that I always had, they're just not quite there anymore. I just don't, I don't have time for them, you know, I just feel likemy time is precious, and I and I want to respect it. So I just feel much more effective and clear, personally, and I think that has come from my yoga practice. So I guess I want to share that as well, and also not just share that, but also give yoga teachers and yoga therapists the tools to support their students in finding that clarity that I think can come with age. To me, that's a beautiful combination. If you combine age and yoga together, it's really amazing what can grow from that, you know, the merging of those two beautiful things.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:41
Gosh, it's sort of the theme of your podcast, isn't it? Looking back. That you can only kind of have a perspective on things once there's a little bit of time to process and wisdom to kind of develop it.
Jivana Heyman 56:53
Right. And I don't think it's looking back just in a sentimental way, because I think that's one of the traps of aging, is that we could potentially get trapped in the past, and I know that happens to many of us, and that's fine, but I feel like it's what you're saying with this podcast. It's like I want to look back so that I can also look ahead. I want to learn from my past so that I can be clearer and more efficient and more effective. Not just because I want to be sentimental, although that's nice sometimes. I want to, like, yeah, just grow from my experiences. And I think age, like, what do I say, age offers wisdom as a possibility. It's not always there, but wisdom is potentially there for us if we learn from what we've done and from our experiences. And I remember, you know, when I'm when I'm teaching older people, I always think about that. I always think about how much wisdom they have, you know.
Jivana Heyman 57:49
I worry sometimes, I think sometimes we infantilize older people, sometimes because they might have limited capacity, or because they're disabled in some way, and so we kind of, I don't know what we do, we just kind of see them as less than. It's like society puts older people in a category, you know, puts them to the side. And I don't know, I don't want to ignore the challenges of aging, like their disability happens, illness happens, there's many challenges. Death eventually comes. But in the meantime, there's so much wisdom there that we can gain from from ourselves and from our community and our students and so I guess the goal is that, like, let's, let's use yoga to help our students connect with that wisdom and that purpose, you know, their life's purpose, whatever that is.
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:47
And the aspect of never stop learning. Like no matter how old you are, you could still learn new things. You could still join a yoga class. You could still learn a skill, assimilate it. And it's sort of what Indu said about, you know, ask her about a memory in two years and her perspective might change. It's like that constant curiosity and reevaluating of everything.
Jivana Heyman 59:07
I love that. Yeah, I totally agree. I think yoga classes for older adults are the perfect place to not only kind of get healthier physically, but also have community and and find peer support and make friends, but also potentially just to be in touch with ourselves and do what you just said is to reflect back in a healthy way, find wisdom.
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:37
Thank you so much, Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 59:40
Thank you, that was fun. Maybe should we leave it there?
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:44
Let's leave it there this time. [Okay] More questions and more voicemails to come, and we hope you still continue sharing your questions and stories.
Jivana Heyman 59:52
Great, thanks, Deanna. Thanks everyone for listening, and I'll get to be with you next time. All right. Bye.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:00
Take care.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
