Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello and welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Chumash land, Santa Barbara, California, and I'm so happy to be with you. Thanks for joining us. And you know, there's a lot going on in the world, and so I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to this and be a part of our community. I've been struggling, you know, with all of the recent events in the world. I feel like in the US, especially, there's very conservative government that we're dealing with, and probably, if you read the news, you know what I'm talking about, just brings up a lot of stuff for me as a queer person, and also someone who's a member of a really diverse community. All of you, I'm thinking of, that are listening and my friends and family. You know, there's been a lot of attacks recently on trans people, non binary people, immigrants, and others. I just really am worried about what's happening, but I am also trying to keep my peace so that I can be of service, be of help in the world. And that's, that's the balance, I guess I wanted to share with you and that I've been thinking about a lot, is, you know, as a yoga teacher and yoga practitioner, what is my role during really challenging times? And I think, as a human being and someone who is compassionate and cares about others, it's my job to speak up when harm is being done. So I'm trying to do that as best I can. I feel like we can all do that. We can speak up for people, speak up when what you see happening isn't ethical or compassionate. You know you can reach out to politicians. You can boycott companies that don't support your view of the world, or at least don't spend your money there. I think, I think we can do everything in our means to actively speak for peace and for kindness.
Jivana Heyman 2:47
At the same time, I know that we need to start by taking care of ourselves, and I know for me, you know, I have to really focus on my practice and caring for my body and my mind and my nervous system, especially, when there's so much kind of bad news coming at me, it just, I can feel dysregulated, and I think that's part of how it works. So it's kind of like a special kind of trauma, honestly, that I feel like I'm dealing with right now, and you may be too. So I'm using my practice as best I can. I'm trying to keep myself calm and remember the teachings that have always been there for me and that have been there for all of us for literally 1000s of years, the yoga teachings that I go to that have been kept alive by people of South Asia, mostly unknown people for centuries, and I'm just very grateful to them and to my teachers and everyone who's influenced me on my path. And I know this podcast is a celebration of 30 years of teaching. That's why I started this season. But to celebrate, I think we need to go back, and I at least need to go back and reflect on, why do I practice, why do I teach? And what is it that I love about yoga, and I think this is really it, that it gives me hope in these difficult times. I feel like yoga has shown me that each of us has that special place in us, you know that spirit or perfect peace that resides in us that's unaffected by what happens to us or what happens around us, and that feels really important to remember, for me. It's like this firm ground that I can stand on no matter what's happening. And so that's why I practice to go back there, to that place and that's why I teach to share that with others.
Jivana Heyman 5:03
And so I hope you can find that. I hope you can find that firm ground right now so that you feel supported, if you're struggling at all. Please reach out to me, let me know if there's anything I can do. You can leave a message for me, we have two ways. In the show notes, you'll see there's a link to a Google Doc, you can leave a written message there. We also have a voicemail system, you can leave a voice message. Let me know if you'd like to share it on the podcast. We've gotten quite a few, and I can't share all of them, but I appreciate every single message that I get, so I just want to say that, and actually after this episode, the end or at the end of the podcast, it's like two parts. After the interview portion, I'll be joined by Deanna, and we'll get to answer some questions and listen to some voice messages. So I hope you'll stick around and join me for that. So let's get to our incredible interview today, so timely, because this is exactly what I need today, is to speak with Scottee. Scottee is so amazing. He's just like, I don't know something about him, felt very bubbly and energetic, and I just really, really appreciated that. So I'm so excited to share this interview with you, with Scottee. I just, I love the way that he introduced himself, let's just say, because I feel like this is a moment of very intense identity politics in the US. And I love the way he claimed his identities. He introduced himself as, I think he said, fat, working class, (what did he say?), autistic, and incredible! I love that, and incredible. You know, so I love that, I love that he's incredible. He is incredible. So I'm excited to have you listen along to this conversation I had with Scottee where we get to talk about lots of different things and mostly about, you know, finding that firm place, really reclaiming it, reclaiming that, especially for marginalized folks, I think it's about reclaiming this firm ground, reclaiming our true selves. You know, that's what I felt Scottee sharing. So here we go. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 7:25
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Jivana Heyman 8:41
Hey, hi everyone. Welcome back. Thanks for being here, and thank you so much, Scottee, for being here with me. Hi!
Scottee 8:46
Hi! Thank you so much for having me. I'm truly, I know the word like honored and humble gets thrown around a lot in our circles, in our world, so I don't want to just throw it out there in a sort of frivolous way. I am very, very flattered to be invited to be a part of this and a part of this moment, which is like a huge moment in, I imagine your life, but also in your working and your emotional life as well.
Jivana Heyman 9:17
It is emotional. Like, should I be retiring. (No, sorry!) That's what I keep thinking. 30 years of teaching is like, is that enough? No, but actually, before we go on, I just wanted you to introduce yourself more. I shared a little bitbefore we started, but I wanted to just give you a chance to share. You do so many incredible things. I don't know how to summarize it, honestly.
Scottee 9:41
Yes, you're right. I am incredible, aren't I?
Rebecca Sebastian 9:43
Yes, you are incredible!
Scottee 9:47
In short, I start most practices actually, when I'm teaching or sharing with a new group of people, I often say to them, I'm fat, working class, autistic, and incredible. And I often use that just as a way, because often in yoga space or movement space or space where we're going to perhaps move, think, and feel, there can be lots of nerves and I offer that as an introduction quite crassly, because someone might think, "Oh my, you're quite close to who I am as a person, or that feels that that relates to me in some way." I also say queer as well. I use the reclaimed language of queerness, but recognizing how that might make others feel.
Jivana Heyman 10:33
Well and you use fat too. I mean, that's a reclaimed word.
Scottee 10:36
I do, yeah, for sure. I mean, there's lots of words that I attribute to myself, by calling myself mad, wonky, which have taken a lot of like mental gymnastics for me to sit with and reclaim and talk to people who often go, oh, but you're not fat. And I just have to do the whole, okay, let's start here, and then hopefully we can learn with each other. So I'm a fairly new teacher in terms of yoga and yoga practice, but I have been working in the realm of social justice, community arts, theater, and audio for 15 years. I went very crazy, and the only thing I could do, two and a half years ago was practice asana practice from bed, from the side of my bed, and from there, my teacher recognized that there was quite a frustrated teacher within me, and I took my journey to start my first 200 hour practice.
Jivana Heyman 11:49
Oh, wow, that's amazing. I want to hear more about that. But tell me you're where you're coming from too. You're in the UK, right?
Scottee 11:57
I'm in the UK, so I'm from a kind of poor suburb in North London. Quite often when you say the word London to people, they think, wow, rich and glamorous and exciting. I come from, I guess what some of my friends on your side of the world might call, like the projects or a housing estate, housing complex. And I moved to a place called Manchester, which is like a very socialist, working class, proud northern town that is kind of famous globally for exporting lots of different musical rock and roll acts. So I live in the north, as we call it in England, and I have a very nice time here. Everybody's super friendly, and that's why I live here, because I'm quite talkative.
Jivana Heyman 12:45
That's so awesome. And your pronouns?
Scottee 12:50
He or they. I mean, this is a, you know, it's a really interesting interception at the moment for me, when thinking about gender and pronouning, because a really astute trans friend of mine said, "There are some different camps around gender, those of us who are like really living and there's lots of change, and there are other people like you, Scottee, who are academically queer and academically, gender is...you want, you want the freedom of expression for everybody. So I use he and they interchangeably. Of course, I could have just said he or they and stop there, but I think context and the reason why we choose different things is always really important to roll out.
Jivana Heyman 13:39
Yeah, no, I think it's really helpful. And I think for people listening too, it can be really educational to explore a little more, rather than just to say, like, this is where I'm from, or these are my pronouns, to give a little explanation about why and where and how, and that's exciting.
Scottee 13:55
And how we arrive at these thoughts and these things that are really precious to us. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 14:01
Well I love the fact that where you live is friendly, that makes me want to go up there now. So thanks for saying that. It made it sound really, really fun, you know, and appealing. But I know you've also done a lot of theater, you mentioned that, and you still do, I believe. And radio is that, right? And TV.
Scottee 14:20
Yeah, so I am currently in a BBC drama written by a Canadian writer called Jordan Tannehill, which is based on his book The Listeners. So it's like a super queer, really beautiful, out there, drama around conspiracy and what we choose to believe in. I do some pranayama, I do some like breath work practice on screen, which was very strange meeting of worlds. And I also am an audio maker, I make podcasts. I have a podcast series out that comes out every first of January that looks at mental health madness and divergence. And and it's me wandering around the countryside in the UK, walking very long distances, trying to piece together ideas around diagnosis, self help, care, wellness, yoga, and the rest of it.
Jivana Heyman 15:16
Yeah, and you're also a runner. Is that right? Because that's what I loved about you because I've started running recently.
Scottee 15:23
Oh, I'm a real reluctant runner. I started running after, so I've lived with quite pronounced mental health presentations since I was about 14, and so I've always tried to find ways of supporting sanity when you've been insane or sanity has left you. The dance with sanity is always something that I love to try and hold on to. So somebody said, oh, there's so much beautiful data around running and mental health. I was like, okay, fine, I'll give it a go. Lo and behold, I'm now, like, really into it, but I'm still very reluctant to run because it's such hard work. But a really wise teacher, yoga teacher, said to me, who's also a runner, said, "Do you not think running is yoga?" And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, "The breath. It's you on your own. It's your thoughts. It's a practice. Sometimes you don't want to do it. Sometimes you, like, bully yourself to it. You find some way through it. But ultimately, it is you, your breath, your thoughts and an observation of the world." And I was like, wow, okay, this has made me see running in a slightly different way.
Jivana Heyman 16:42
I love that. I love that. I just started running, like, maybe six months ago, and it's been great. I mean, I just, I think I brought yoga to it, because I couldn't help it. It was like I'm more used to asana than running, but it's been enjoyable and yet challenging to push myself, because in asana, I don't really, I really take it easy in my asana practice. But with running, I see what you mean. It's like, you really do have to make a big effort. Like, it's really like, okay, keep going, you know, keep going. Because it's easy to be like, okay, I'm done! (Yeah) And then a little bit often, you know, like, that's my current thing. It's to keep doing it almost every day, basically.
Scottee 17:20
And there's some parts of me, I don't know if I've really formulated this as an explicit thought, but there's some part of me which really feels that, perhaps because it's so exertive, because it requires a lot of concentration on the breath, because there is a big focus on the movement, but because it can be meditative, it can be a place where you can put ducks in a row, you can start to think about the world. You think about how you interact with other people in that space. For part of me thinks, wow, I wonder if this is explicitly more eight limb than a lot of asana practice, or a lot of classes that I might go to in a studio.
Jivana Heyman 18:06
Well, I mean, I never did very intense asana. My background is traditional Hatha Yoga, and so it's always been relatively gentle, all kind things considered. So I thought, well, maybe that's what people love about that intense asana, of like, you know, hot classes or flowing classes. I mean, I've done just a little bit of that, and I can see the appeal, that it's very engaging. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot to focus on, and so your mind is pretty focused on the present moment, on what is happening right now. Like, how does the feelings I'm having? You know what I mean? Like, you can't help but have that interoceptive experience, because there's so much happening.
Scottee 18:44
Yeah, I wonder if some people, I mean, I rarely go to studio practices, I have to sort of be coerced into them with my friends who enjoy them. But there's part of me when, you know, I can't help but observe the maths of it and how it's working and what's going on, if largely it's about people not feeling like they have to lead, people feeling not like they have to make the decisions. Late capitalism requires us to constantly be making decisions around survivals of plural and going to a studio class for an hour and a half, somebody can tell you what to do.
Jivana Heyman 19:25
Yeah, I never thought about that. That's really interesting. There is something so meditative about it. I mean, for me, also having a similar sequence that I do in my personal practice is really helpful. And also, when I teach, I try not to mix it up very much, because I think that's really soothing for people, to know what to expect. To not have to really, I don't know, to not have to worry so much, like, this is going to be a sequence that we do and you get to know that sequence. Yeah, you don't to think about it as much, maybe. So similar to following along with a teacher, you can also have that in your own practice, or as a teacher, recognize the power of that of, like, consistency and the soothing nature of a relatively similar sequence each time you teach.
Scottee 20:10
Mmmhmm. Yeah, there is something, particularly for neurodivergent folk, around the soothing of pattern and knowing what the sequence is going to be and what it looks like. The way in which I try to teach, and I hope to teach, is to to do the scary things, to offer the scary things and the practices that aren't often offered to those of us who are marginalized, to those of us who I lovingly call wonky. I think it's a banner that encompasses many of us, because I think we also deserve the access to that. And if at the end of it, we go, that was rubbish, I hate that. I never want to do that again. I'm really up for that. I never want to teach from a place of, this is the right way. This is going to be good. We're all going to enjoy this. It's always from like, inquiry of being like, I don't know, I'm giving this a go with you.
Jivana Heyman 21:18
Yeah! I mean, that's really the heart of my work too. I mean, accessibility starts with power and choice. And so that's what you're saying, it's like the choice to try and not like it. I mean, that's always a choice. The choice to stop or to do something different. That's also what trauma informed teaching is. I mean, really, that's the heart of all of the I think what we're learning about yoga now is that we need to bring that piece in, you know, of reflecting on the power dynamics.
Scottee 21:44
And what I find so interesting is, of course, I feel that, I'm going to include myself in this, but I think those of us who are very access minded in lots of different ways, access takes lots of different forms, we know that. But those of us who do that, we are very highly skilled, but when you, like, if we bring it down to the ethics of agency and ultimate choice and like, why is there such resistance in the circles of which we find ourselves in to offer practice in that way?
Jivana Heyman 22:25
Well, it's interesting to me that we're talking about what seems like two opposing things, like this idea of people wanting to be led, you know, like how that's so calming and nice, and also to have agency. Yeah, it feels contrary, but actually, I think you're really getting to it. To me, whenever there's a paradox or a conflict like that, it means it's probably true. That's my experience of the world. So, yeah.
Scottee 22:48
Yes, yeah, yeah. And choice, you know, and choice, I think giving people choice is possibly a halfway ground between both of those places, which is like it could look or feel like this or this or this or not at all, you know. And I think that takes a lot of effort to think about parity in practice, and it does take a practice and a skill, but I just think there are lots of lazy teachers out there that make me very angry that, like in its simplest form, it's about asking and giving everybody a lovely, meaningful experience.
Jivana Heyman 23:31
Yeah, I love that. Well, that's what that's what I do, is basically try to support teachers in getting over that laziness, but not also beating themselves up. Because I also find that there's an extreme out there, which is yoga teachers who really mean well and want to make it accessible, but they feel like they're not good enough, and so they don't actually do it. Do you know what I mean? Like, they don't have the confidence. So a lot of my work is to try to, I don't, inspire confidence in teachers, to know that if you're a well meaning person and you care about people, like, you can be a great yoga teacher too. Like, it's okay, you just put yourself out there and do your best. (Yeah) So, before we go on too long, I want to ask the question that I had told you about, that I'm asking all the guests. I just want to make sure we have time, because I hope that you have some good stories for me, which is basically, I'm asking each person, what's the story teaching or practice from your past that continues to inspire you as you move forward in your path of yoga, your journey in general? I wonder if you have stories or experiences you would be willing to share?
Scottee 24:27
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's one from a very long time ago. So, as I sort of teased, I come from a housing project in what was called "the wrong end of town," and it just so happened that this was also the place where the first ever Bikram School of yoga in the UK was situated and opened, and as very inquisitive pre teenagers, these people that would come to our neighborhood with their big fancy cars and then queue outside this building, and we had no idea what it was. We had no idea what yoga was. We had no idea what a Bikram school was, but we were met with such, like, anger and animosity. And we met that animosity. And so one of my first interactions with yoga was trying to kick the door in of a studio. One of my first interactions with yoga was thinking, I don't like the way that these posh people are talking to me. Like, we felt so disenfranchised, but I guess what's going on there, right, is like a, which I wouldn't be able to identify then, but now, is like a class rage. It's like, what is it that you're coming into our area, our neighborhood, to do? Why is it behind closed doors? Why are we not invited? What is this? And this only really came back to me during practice, like, a few weeks ago, and this question that you had planted in my brain was with me, and I was like, what was my first experience of yoga? And I was like, that was it! It was like this fortress of people in, like, you know, the the gym wear, and we're talking, we must be talking mid 90s here, at the moment and just knowing that we weren't welcome, it wasn't for us, and there was animosity towards us. Re thinking that now, and looking back at that, not only, of course, do we understand of which the principles that the Bikram School of Yoga has been built upon, which you know, for anybody who doesn't know, I would really welcome you to look at the documentary and to look at any other sighted evidence that you can online. But there's a rage within me that knows that this isn't an elitist practice, or shouldn't be an elitist practice, and it has so much informed my relationship with access in yoga. So a lot of what I try to do, and what I'm always really conscious of, is not only the access of the asana practice, not only around the languages in which we're using, but also the financial access of classes, practices, memberships, etc. It's a huge, huge thing for me, coming from poverty and understanding that there was this fortress in my past that yoga represented that it shouldn't have, it really shouldn't have. And so that became a real framing for my introduction to yoga.
Jivana Heyman 27:50
I can relate honestly. I had a similar experience in a way, not not exactly like that, but just the feeling when I was starting to teach. I had been an AIDS activist, and I was wanting to share yoga with people with HIV and AIDS, and that's why I became a teacher. But when it was happening at the same time, I was in San Francisco, and that's right when the yoga studio started to be coming up, you know? And it wasn't Bikram necessarily, but there was a lot of fancy studios that were being built, and I just felt like, what is happening? It felt like yoga was going the opposite direction than what I felt that it was, you know, and I had learned yoga as a child from my grandmother, and she was kind of like an older hippie, like it was more like a hippie tradition that I was learning. So it was just kind of a shock to me. I was like, what is this, you know, what is this kind of like you have to wear certain clothes, it's very fancy and very expensive, and you have to look a certain way. And I could see that my community wasn't welcome in that space, you know. (Yeah) So I actually think what you're describing, I mean, it's a beautiful image for some much bigger problem, like, it's just representative, I think, of something really so important in yoga, which is the fact that yoga has become this very exclusive practice for, you know, to make money. I mean, honestly, so much of it's built because of business like Bikram, really, I think not only was he abusive in other ways, but a lot of it was financial. A lot of money stuff going on there. He was a Rolls Royce salesman. I mean, it was just like, what, like, what?
Scottee 29:27
And I mean, even if we think about the contemporary, like yoga 200 courses are so expensive in the UK. You're looking particularly to work with a well rounded school that's going to give you a really good basis of knowledge to be able to go out into the world, and one that will, we hope, touch on some sense of accessible practice, touch at least on some sense of like body difference within practice. And that is a minimum of two and a half thousand pounds. The access to be able to even start, and even after that 200 hours, I wouldn't say, and I'm talking very much from a UK context here, that you are necessarily really ready to go out into the world and start holding rooms full of people. I was very lucky that after my training, I was in collaboration, I was holding rooms with other very well seasoned teachers who had done their 500 hours, who had done all their additional training. So just the financial access alone is a barrier.
Jivana Heyman 30:38
Yeah, well, accessibility starts with money, honestly, and finances. I mean, you can't really even talk about the other stuff if you can't get into the room, if you can't afford, or you don't have time, you know, you don't have time go. I just think that is such an essential aspect and something I worry about a lot and I wonder about. I mean it's just such an obstacle. I mean, it's true about the world in general, that finances have become such an issue. There's such a disparity, especially here. I mean, maybe in the US even worse, you know, like the financial problems we're having in terms of the class divide and wealth disparities, but it's so sad to see it in a practice like yoga, and to see the way that yoga has been used to make money, honestly, just people use it to make money. And when it's not about that, it's not about, you know, it's not about money, really at all. I mean, I think it's really hard to integrate business and yoga too at the same time. So for yoga teachers who are struggling, I mean, I really get that struggle. It's really hard to, like, make a living as a teacher, and I think there's reasons for that. I think because really yoga, to me, is, like, free. Like, I think that's the free part. I always say, if you're paying me, you're paying for my time, or for my rent or my electricity, and that the yoga part is free. You know, it's like, that's not something that I can charge for. It's like, I don't own yoga. It was a gift that I've been given and I'm passing along, right?
Scottee 32:06
And do you know, I think again, we're going to come up against one of those things that feel like it's going to go against what I just said. But I think, particularly as teachers, we need to be much better about talking about money and being explicit about money. Now, of course, there are parts of the history of yoga, of which yoga was exchanged, and it could be exchanged because there were communities of people that were able to support each other. So one thing could be given for another. Unfortunately, the system that many of us are living under is late capitalism, and that's kind of not going to be possible for me to be able to teach any way, haven't found the way. But I think there is so much of this, like, I don't know whether this is part of your sphere, but I see a lot of this language about the investment, the offer. It's like, let's talk about money in a really explicit way, it costs this, and this is the reason why. But I also think you can think of and as you have, and I have been a benefit of when I was first training and I was doing additional training with you, it's like sliding scale is a real easy way of trying to create a bit more space for a few more people, because those who have the space largely will often come forward and say, I have more, I will give more. And that system works really well. So in some ways, I don't think it's too difficult to find ways through, but I do think we have to be better and more comfortable about talking about the money and the reason why it exists.
Jivana Heyman 33:44
Well, we do sliding scale, actually tiered pricing for all of our programs. But it is interesting, because what we found is that people didn't understand that. People really didn't, a lot of people didn't really get what that meant and how to decide, and so we had to create a whole bunch of resources for them to figure out which tier is appropriate for you. And so we have done that, we've used other people's work basically just to share, like, here's a way to explore your own financial situation and decided which is appropriate for you. And largely, people are very generous, I mean, mostly. It's not like, sometimes I think there's a fear that if I offer three tiers of pricing, everyone's going to pick the cheapest one and that's not the case, by far. And we definitely have, it's spread pretty evenly in the end across. I think we do have a majority of people choosing the lower levels, but that's fine. We also have a higher level that's above the average price we would want for something, so that is supposed to balance it out. In the end, it works out pretty well. And we also offer partial scholarships, occasionally full scholarships, but I find that generally is more difficult. What we do is try and work with individuals to find a price that works for them. And I have to say, like, in terms of creating this Accessible Yoga School and all the programs, this takes most time, like figuring out how to have a fair financial structure takes so much of our time and energy. Giving out scholarships, having that communication with people, it's a lot of time you have to really invest yourself. Yeah, it's the investment to make something equitable.
Scottee 35:16
Yes, yeah. And you know, we can only try. We can only try. And there will always be instances where maybe we fail, but it's the learning from that that I think is really important. Something that I try to be very explicit about, I have a online platform for people to come and practice with me, is just about the maths of it, how it works, the reason why it can't be too oversubscribed, the reason why it's priced at a certain rate. And I think when you're open like that, I'm always so surprised how people are, like, I would love to give more this month. Or I can't be on the higher rate. Or, please, can I change rate for the next few months? Like, I think the more explicit you are about, and this isn't me telling you, this is me, you know, at one, at the more explicit one is about trying to talk about the community of which you're trying to set up. I think the more that people are part of the community and they feel like they want to, you know, help drive it forward, whatever forward looks like.
Jivana Heyman 35:17
Yes, but also I want to put out this message also, which is that for me, if there's people out there who want to take trainings with me, I want them to ask. If they don't have the money, I just want them to ask. I have a structure set up, but sometimes that still doesn't work, and it's okay to just to say that, and then we'll try to work it out with you. And I feel like that's where, that's what I worry about the most is that oftentimes it's people who want it, but they're just like, no, I don't want to ask. I don't want to, you know what I mean, like, I don't want to bother anyone. And I like, it's just okay, you know, just ask. It's okay to ask. I could say no. I could say yes, I mean, but it's just good to ask for what you need. And I think as a yoga teacher, that's part of what I had to learn to do. I was very shy, and so just becoming a teacher and putting myself out there in front of a class, and then to run a training and all that, you have to just start learning some kind of, I don't know what, it's not confidence, but just yeah, speaking up for what you need.
Scottee 37:14
Yes, yeah, yeah. There's, um, there was another experience that I would love to bring to the table, if that's okay. You know, I've been teaching now for a year and a half, so I'm a very new teacher, but I launched my online practices last year, and I had a member join very soon after that, who was very engaged and asked me lots of questions before joining the community, and then disclosed that they were in the final moments of their life, and they used the words that they wanted me to be their last teacher. And there was something, there's something about that that has changed me and for the better, and there's something about that experience of practicing with that person up until the end, that has given me a great respect, or a deeper respect, for the practice and for the final moments of practice, particularly in asana practice, what we mean when we come into the final posture, what It symbolizes, who we might be referring to or referencing. And for it to happen so early in my teaching life has meant a lot to me, and I will take their words and their thoughts with me. I remember one of my last emails to them was saying because they were saying they couldn't practice an asana practice anymore and I said something around the breath, if you're breathing, you're practicing until you're not, and then you're practicing elsewhere. And I thought where did this profoundness come from? But in a real sense, it was just, it's what I really felt and what I got. What she had given me and hopefully what I could give her, really has taught me about the exchange of teaching and not teaching, being dictorial, that there is not only a choice that people make to be with you and for you to help create and curate their practice, but of what you can offer each other, the plurality, the pluralness of it, yeah.
Jivana Heyman 39:50
The relationship is what I think you're saying. The student, teacher relationship is a really important relationship, and it's valid and I feel like it's been minimized, you know, and because we often end up only talking about it when it's problematic, like an abuse. You know, when that relationship is abused, we talk about it, but when do we talk about it when it's not abused? When do we talk about the teacher, student relationship, when it's a beautiful thing, like what you described, you know, it's so amazing.
Scottee 40:19
Well, I can. I can, if you want, the teacher that saw the teacher in me is still my teacher, and she's my friend and she's my internet pal, and we run around the internet with each other. Her name's Lucy B and I'm so grateful for her, because her practice made me be able to practice in a fat body, and to be able to try tricky and difficult things in an asana practice. But she was the teacher that saw that I had this, like, bit of a burning desire, and she said it and she made it real. And so I think, you know, you can only hope, well, I can only hope because I know that you have already done this for loads of other teachers, but I can only hope that I can offer that to somebody else, that I can encourage other people into paths of teaching or sharing, or into the philosophy in really mindful ways. You can only hope that what has been given to you can be passed along.
Jivana Heyman 41:25
Yeah, I love that. And I mean, I know you are. I mean, you are, because if you share authentically, that's what happens. I mean, if you share yourself the way you do, which is to be really honest and clear about who you are and what yoga means to you and your challenges with it too, I think it's really, really amazing. But I just want to go back to the yoga and death piece, because it's so important to me too. I mean, that's how I started, because I was working with people with AIDS right in the middle of the AIDS epidemic. I mean, those were days where the medications weren't really very good, and people were dying of AIDS, and so I had the first class that I started was a class for people with AIDS at a hospital in San Francisco, which was like the epicenter of AIDS, and we had, I don't know there were about 10 guys in that first group. And that class actually continued for maybe about 12 years, like that same, we would meet twice a week for about 12 years. And we had long sessions, like two hour sessions, where we would talk and then share, and then have a class, you know. And sometimes we would read the Sutras or the Gita, or sometimes just talk about, or poetry or something. Because what I found is they really wanted that. They didn't really care so much about the asana. They were much more concerned with, like, spiritual teachings. And I'm generalizing, but I think they wanted it, like, they were, they were dealing with, like death, and they were they were young. They were, like, the same age as me. I was like, I don't even know, early 20s, and most of them were also mid 20s and or late 20s, some some 30s, maybe. But it was like they wanted the their big spiritual questions, you know, answered, which, I mean, I couldn't do at 20 something, but I would just continually try to bring them to the yoga teachings, like, well, here's what I'm reading and then, you know, people would die in the group. Like we had, as a group, we would kind of deal with that, which was really nice to have that community.
Jivana Heyman 43:23
And I was just writing about this, actually. So there was one guy, his name was George, and he had been coming to the class for a long time, and he loved Rumi, and he would always ask me to read Rumi poems. And then we found out that he was sick, and he just had stopped coming to class. But then we discovered that he was actually in the hospital where we were having class. We were having class in the conference room in the basement, and he was upstairs in the same hospital as a patient. So that day, someone found out he was there, I don't know how we figured it out. And the group, we all went up to his room, and he was quite ill. I mean, it was really something. And we all just like, kind of sat around his bed and we talked, and we kind of had our circle with him, and he said, oh, will you read this poem? And there was one poem, in particular, Remember Me, and I had it, so I read it, and he was in tears. It was just so beautiful to me and then he died within a few days of that, and it was just like it was so nice to have that experience of being able to share something, you know, that I had found and that community that we had built. It was really spectacular. And a couple of those, well, two, two of those guys actually became yoga teachers and are still teaching, which is pretty incredible.
Scottee 43:23
It is incredible. There's something that makes me feel incredibly...honored is the wrong word, grateful. People share a lot with us, and we share a lot with them, but we are often given glimpses into people's worlds and lives, which are so intimate. And I hope that people know that I and you hold them dearly. You know, these are moments that shape who we are, shape our practices, but to know that we can offer hopefully, some softness, maybe we are hopefully rounding some edges, or helping folk make sense of the end, so that we can enjoy everything to that moment is a huge part of my personal practice.
Jivana Heyman 45:35
I love that. And I do think yoga is preparation for death, actually. I think that's the point of the practice in many ways, like you said, and whether it's because each class pretty much ends with Shavasana or not, because of the deeper understanding that the teachings offer us about the nature of our birth, like the fact that we are these eternal spiritual beings, and the body and mind are temporary. And I think that that's what I hold on to. But I love what you're saying about the humility that you hold it with, and how I feel the same way, often I think, why am I here? Like, why? How did I end up in this situation where someone thinks I know anything that's going to help them in this really, really difficult or incredibly intense moment? And then I realized, well, actually, at least what I've done over the years is realized it's not me, you know, that I just have the teachings that I found that I rely on, and I'm grateful to everyone who's held those teachings for millennia, literally 1000s of years, from South Asia, and the fact that I've had access to that stream, and I'm like, okay, here, come into the stream with me. Like that's all I can do. It's like, here you can dip your foot in here with me. I don't really know anything more about it than you, but it's like, it's here, and I can kind of accept, well, here it is.
Scottee 45:55
There's something that I would love to say back to you, which is, I think you are part of the magic as well. And something that I struggle with is quite often people will say, you know, they'll talk about me to me, where they'll say, you have this ability to, you are a listener, you are understanding. And for ages, I really refuted it. And I was like, because I felt it was ego. I felt to accept it would be to be, like, trying to be bigger than I am, it was ego talking. And I've tried to make peace with the fact, or I'm trying to make peace with the idea that maybe there is something within us, not as individuals, but within this skill set that allows folks to share this intimacy and for us to be able to receive it as well. Because not everybody is able to to receive it, not everybody is able to acknowledge it and to really untangle some of the big stuff that comes with this responsibility of being a teacher.
Jivana Heyman 48:06
Maybe. I think, because I need it so badly.
Scottee 48:12
Wow, okay, yeah, fair. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 48:13
And it's been so meaningful to me, so I'm just focused on it. It's very present in my mind. The teachings are there for me, like, very present in my mind, because I've struggled so much through my life, and I feel like I found something that made me feel better, that answered my questions and gave me a sense of hope and faith. I mean, faith is a big part of it, actually, and I just like to share that with other people. And I do have faith. So I do feel like, yes, I definitely now recognize that, especially after many years of doing this, that I do have this thing, that not everyone has that faith, but it wasn't just me, it was just because I was, like, desperate for it. I can't explain it was like, I'm a desperately needy human. Like, I was just so lost and confused and like, searching, searching and I think that hunger is actually really great for spiritual practice. You have to have a certain hunger to to really look around and figure out what is the thing that I'm looking for that's going to solve this. It's going to fill me up. And I feel like I found that in yoga, I found teachings that were meaningful to me, and I hold on to those. I hold them very dearly.
Scottee 48:41
I have so much space for folk that hold the faith and spiritualism really close. For me, what's much closer is the philosophy, is the thinking of it, and how it stimulates thoughts and and how I'm kind of annoyed by lots of it, and I have to sit with it, and have to be like, well, I'm gonna take that away and think about that myself.
Jivana Heyman 49:57
That's part of it! I don't mean faith like blind, I just hate to say blind faith, but I don't mean like just believing in something for no reason, but I mean faith that comes through experience and like benefiting from something, you know, recognizing, like the world right now feels very scary, and a lot of things are, it feels like things are getting worse in many ways, but at the same time, I think human beings have always been like this, and so I just recognize that there is wisdom from our ancestors and from the people who came before and I think we can look back and learn a lot from that. And that's what yoga is, for me, is like looking back at traditions that have explored human nature and the mind and and learn from that and apply it, in my mind. Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense.
Scottee 50:56
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, sometimes I'm glad that I've actually been able to say things, because whenever I like watch you, I just feel like I go super quiet, and I just want to watch and listen and absorb what you say, because it comes like, particularly, you're always so generous in talking about your experiences in San Francisco, with early AIDS days, with that epidemic. And as a queer that wasn't there, but has so many friends from the generation, I always feel like I'm being gifted with something which is part of my lineage. And so, I'm so grateful every time that you reveal and share those parts with us, because they're so important, but I want to recognize that they don't come easy. They don't come easy to share. And so to be able to be a receiver, to be able to listen to that stuff, I'm very grateful for.
Jivana Heyman 51:58
Yeah, I appreciate that, because I do think that, I've been thinking about this recently, about how do we know what we're missing? Do you know what I mean, like, how do you recognize what's not there? And it's so sad to me, like, the number of people that I've lost, you know, then I could easily count, I don't know, 20 people off the top of my head who died from AIDS during those years. And I just think about the world, like, and not in a silly way, like, oh, what would it be like if they hadn't died? But honestly, just like, loss, and how when something's gone, we don't see it anymore. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just invisible. And so I feel like my generation, and I'm on the young end of that generation. I mean, I'm 57 but I think people around 60, like, especially gay men, you know, early 60s, like, there's a gap there. There's, like, a whole generation of gay men that are gone and, like, we just don't see them. We don't see the impact. We don't, I don't know it just it haunts me. It's like a ghost, you know, I feel like there's a ghost around me a lot, and that's it. That's the ghost, you know, my friend who died from AIDS. And, I mean, it's a friendly ghost.
Scottee 51:59
Yeah. But maybe that's what, what is...what am I trying to say? The ghosts, the water, I often talk about the watermarks that we carry, like we they are with us.
Jivana Heyman 53:28
That's so artistic. Well, it also, you know, we talk about ancestors a lot. And I think in the yoga tradition, or people, you know, people from indigenous communities talk about ancestors. But I want to say, as a gay man, like my ancestors are gay men, you know, like, sure I have ancestors that like my birth grandparents and all those and their parents and their parents, sure. But I also have another set of ancestors around me that are queer people who died too young, especially, and I think about them all the time, you know, and I feel like they are with me, and I feel like I'm as much as I can, I'm trying to, like, bring them into my life, you know, and think about them and reflect. Again, there's a void there, so I can't fill that void, but I can just reflect on it as much as possible. So I'm just, I really appreciate you saying that, because about that time and those people, because I don't think I get to talk about it enough, actually. And I'm writing a book right now, and I found in this book that I'm just telling a lot more stories than I usually do. Like, a lot of my books are very practical teaching, and this new one is, I don't know something's happened, and I'm just wanting to tell these stories. And so that one, like with George, is in that book, and there's so many more. So I just, I'm trying to think, well, will that book be publishable? Because it's just stories, you know, we'll see.
Scottee 54:50
Yes, it will be, because there's a whole bunch of us who are grateful to be able to receive those stories because of what they mean to us. Yeah, but also as well, we have to be careful, to tread carefully, because how those stories might have shaped or affected us can often mean that these parts of us can be quite sore as well, and that's the yoga, isn't it? Knowing what is capable, possible, doable, as well as trying to apply ourselves is always a difficult one, that bartering.
Jivana Heyman 55:27
That's beautiful. I could talk to you forever, I think, honestly, like I this could go on for a very long time, Scottee.
Scottee 55:34
Yeah, well, I've got forever until the end, so this is not going to be the end, I hope.
Jivana Heyman 55:42
Well and I should say we've actually never spoken. I mean, we've had many exchanges and messages and stuff, but we've never had a moment like this. So I just want to say how great it is to connect with you. And that's what I'm so excited about this podcast, this one in particular, I was very excited about because I get to you!
Scottee 55:57
Well, I would love to say, and on behalf of, you know, a whole host of teachers, particularly teachers who are at the other end of their 30 years career, you know, at the start of that journey, that, like I have been of benefit to your teaching, to your sharings, to your books. And I know, and well, I feel that you would take that, when I say you, you know, everyone and all around you who support all of those teachings and those beautiful seminars. But I'm just, you know, very grateful for the encouragement. You've given me a lot of encouragement. You've always sent me lovely messages of encouragement. So happy 30th! (Thank you) I'll see you at Happy 60th, I hope.
Jivana Heyman 56:48
Yes, I'll see you at your 30th. Thanks, Scottee, okay.
Scottee 56:54
Thank you so much.
Jivana Heyman 56:55
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Jivana Heyman 57:57
Welcome back everyone. Hey, Deanna!
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:00
Hey, Jivana, how are you doing?
Jivana Heyman 58:03
I'm pretty good, excited for this Q&A portion of our podcast, but tell me, how are you? Things have been kind of intense these days, right?
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:13
This is a month that'll never end, but luckily, by the time the listeners are tuning in, it'll be February. The longest January in history will be passed us.
Jivana Heyman 58:23
Well, and hopefully February is a little more easeful, you know, who knows? (We'll see.) Yeah, my gosh, it's just been a lot. I was just thinking about how this podcast has been such an incredible gift, like, it's just something I really look forward to. I love these conversations. I've really enjoyed this portion, hearing from our listeners. It's been, it's just been so great. So I'm, I'm just so glad we're doing it, and thanks. Thanks for helping figure this out.
Deanna Michalopoulos 58:55
Well, this episode with Scottee was such a balm. Thank you for introducing him because I had never heard a conversation with them. And Scottee is incredible. I'm a big fan. I've already followed on social media, so thank you. You two covered a lot.
Jivana Heyman 59:13
Yeah, it was hard to stop, you know, I could have talked to him forever. He's just so sweet and just easy to talk to and funny. It was great. So I know, it was really good. I again, I can't wait to see who's coming next, but people have to wait too, who's coming in our next podcast. So yeah, but let's hear from listeners. I'm really enjoying that part, maybe most of all, actually, is getting to hear from people leaving voice messages and written comments. So let's get to it.
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:47
All right. I have a voicemail to share from Rebecca Sebastian. (Yay! Rebecca) Let me hit play right now.
Rebecca Sebastian 59:55
Jivana, congratulations on 30 years! It is Rebecca Sebastian and I wanted to say hi, and I also really wanted to try this app, SpeakPipe, I might try it for my podcast. This is super cool. But 30 years is a long time to be in this industry and to make the kind of impact that you made for all of us. Thanks. Thanks for the work you do so that the rest of us can do the work we do. Congratulations, truly, 30 years.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:26
Wow, that's so sweet. I love her. She had interviewed me for her podcast, actually twice, the second one hasn't come out yet. I don't know when, but hopefully soon it'll be released, but I probably should have her as a guest.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:44
I'd love to hear more from Rebecca. Great energy.
Jivana Heyman 1:00:47
I don't want to give anything away. But thank you, Rebecca, that's so sweet, and I really appreciate what you said. Yeah, that's very sweet, very sweet.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:55
Have you had more time to think about your 30 years? I mean, it's kind of a lot to think about, and I know if you've been doing these interviews, it's probably been on your mind, passage of time.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:07
Yeah, well, like I said to Scottee, maybe it's just time to retire. That's what I said. No, I'm not retiring. Actually, I've been thinking, you know, I've been leading a new course on Accessible Yoga for Older Adults, and I was just thinking how it's just endless. Like yoga is just endless. The possibilities are endless. The practice is endless. The information out there is endless. There's just so much potential and so much power in these practices. It is never ending. One lifetime is not enough. So, 30 years is like nothing, it's like a drop in a bucket. Of course, that's just 30 years of teaching. I've been practicing even longer, but still it's nothing at all. So I hope I'm still teaching before I, like in my 80s.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:01:56
Are you still learning? Do you feel like you're learning something new every day as you teach?
Jivana Heyman 1:02:00
Oh god, yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's one thing every day. It's more like big buckets of knowledge pour into my head once in a while, and then days go where I'm just kind of wandering around aimlessly. But, you know, like researching for older adults, I'm just kind of blown away, just mostly reading about the research that's being done on yoga right now. It's incredible. You know, it's really positive, actually, there's just such positive applications of yoga for older adults and it's showing to help us in so many ways. I mean, it's just really, it's really kind of incredible how it's like yoga for anything can be really useful. So it's been really inspiring.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:41
Well, speaking of inspiring, we have another voicemail to share, and I thought I would share from Elisa Jouannet, if that's okay with you Jivana, and this is a short story.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:53
Sure, Elisa!
Elisa Jouannet 1:02:54
Hello, Jivana. Thank you for this opportunity and making it interactive. I remember in 2017 or 2016 when I did my 500 hours YTT, one of the teachers I trained with in India told us that wherever we are, that's perfect. And I just didn't understand it at first and for years, actually, because I thought that we were trying to fix something, that we were trying to seek something else, that we are not, enlightenment or healing or a next pose to perform, or a more peaceful mind, or whatever that we were looking for. If we were in the yoga path to me, it meant that we were willing to be better, or feel better, or to act in another way. So it was like a dualism that I didn't get, like wherever you are that's perfect while looking for something else. And now I just understand more that even the fact that I don't understand is perfect, even the fact that I feel frustration is perfect, even the fact that some poses are just not okay in my body is perfect. So just the path itself is perfect, and yoga teaches us to accept it.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:25
Wow, that's such a great story. Oh my gosh. I love that so much. I couldn't agree more. I think that's exactly right, you know, I love that about yoga. It's just helping us to see that we're fine, to know that everything is okay, and then we have what we need inside and that we're full already. That idea of fullness is kind of essential to the teachings, that we have this true self that's full and complete, and that it's just the mind and the thoughts that are keeping us from seeing that or experiencing it clearly. And so I just think it's such a beautiful perspective to remember that we can work, that the work of yoga is to go back to that is to like, go back to that original, not even original, go back to remembering. It's just remembering what we forgot. So it's not about even getting better or improving, necessarily. Just remember that you're fine. I love that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:05:19
That's why it's such a preface, I guess, because it's not like once you've remembered, now, okay, you're remembering every day, every hour for the rest of your life. It's just a continual returning, I would say.
Jivana Heyman 1:05:30
Yeah, and it's, I think it's a perspective thing. It's about shifting. Okay, can I tell you a little story? I was watching this reel, I'll think of his name in a minute, but a physicist explaining how tides work. Have I explained this to you? Maybe I've told you this before. (You haven't.) Okay, because I'm slightly obsessed with this idea that when you're on the beach, and I go the beach like pretty much every day, it feels like the tide is moving in and out right, like low tide and high tide. And so our experience is that the tide is actually moving, that the ocean's moving. But what he explained was, oh and it's Neil Degrasse Tyson is the physicist who's so amazing, he explained that actually the tidal bulge of the ocean is permanently in a certain direction towards the Moon, that the Moon is actually pulling the oceans towards it. And as the orientation of the Moon and the Earth change and then the Earth is basically turning inside of that ocean and inside of that tidal bulge. So it's like, what's actually changing is the earth is moving inside of that kind of ocean orb. I'm not explaining as well as him, but basically the point being that, that tide isn't coming in and out, the ocean bulge is staying towards the Moon, and we're experiencing it in a very different way. So, like, it's a subjective experience to something that's more objective. And I feel like that's kind of how yoga is, that I'm having this very subjective human experience of seeing like, yeah, one day feeling okay, one day feeling bad, one day feeling connected, one day feeling disconnected. A lot of suffering in the meantime goes on, but in the end, there is the objective experience of the true self that's never changing and constant that we're trying to remember, and that's what yoga represents. Does that make sense?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:07:28
It's beautiful. No, it reminds me of the phenomenon when you're in a plane and you see maybe a car moving, or you're in a car, and then car next to you moves, and then you have that sensation that you're moving like your brain really feels like you're moving in space, and in reality you're still planted at the light, but similar in that it's a perspective shift when you realize, oh no, I'm here. I'm solid. I hadn't moved. It's everything else moving around me.
Jivana Heyman 1:07:57
Oh my god, that's so great. Yeah, so thanks, Elisa. And you said she has a question too?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:08:05
Yeah. You know, I picked out this question because you and Scottee talked about financial accessibility and how, you know, accessibility often starts there. And what I really appreciated is that Scottee referred to the feeling that yoga can feel like a fortress to some people, just impenetrable, you know, and one of those reasons can be for financial reasons. And so Elisa asked this question, so I thought it was a great one to bring forth today. How did you navigate teaching accessible classes in terms of pricing and sustaining yourself? Did you ever have a side job?
Jivana Heyman 1:08:39
Oh, my god, did I ever have a side job. When didn't I? It was like, only, it's only been in the last, you know, gosh, let me think about this, I don't know, maybe five or 10 years that I could really support myself and help support my family as a yoga teacher, because before that, I just couldn't, my income was too irregular and I was teaching a lot for free, and a lot of, you know, low cost classes. And luckily, my husband has a nine to five job, and so, you know, he and I have been together for 32 years. And so, you know, we kind of, he's been there supporting me, I would say all along. I mean, I feel spoiled, I guess, in the sense that I've had his support, but it's been rough. Then the other thing that happened is that, you know, we had two kids. We adopted two kids. So because I was making less money than him, I, by default, became the stay at home parent. So because yoga teaching, I could schedule around their lives, and he couldn't. He was working nine to five, so I had the privilege and challenge of being the stay at home, main caregiver for both of my kids from infants, we adopted them both at infants, and so that was extremely challenging. So other than that job of parenting, which was probably the major job I've had in my life, I've done lots of other things. I was a gardener, most recently, so I was professional gardener in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is also really challenging physically. I mean, it's amazing to be in gardens all day and working with plants and dirt, but it's just, it's not nearly as romantic as it sounds. You know, it's like intense physical labor and really hard with the elements, like you're just in the elements all the time, like working in the rain and the cold, and so that was, it was challenging. It was hard on my back. I had some back injuries already, and it just really was rough. And then before that, I was actually a reporter for an AIDS newsletter, and I continued to do writing. In fact, that's where my interest in writing really started. So I would do a little writing for money through the gardening years, and then teaching yoga and and then I was running teacher training programs to make, you know, help make money. I was administering the teacher training programs at the San Francisco Integral Yoga Institute for many years, and helping to manage the institute. And then, for a while, I owned a yoga studio here in San in Santa Barbara, I owned the Santa Barbara Yoga Center, which was not a money making affair. Having a yoga studio is challenging. So anyway, it's been a long and winding road. But, I mean, I love that question, and I hope it gets better for people. I hope that there's a more consistent way to make a living doing such great work, it just took me close to 30 years.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:11:48
Thanks so much for your honesty and sharing, you know, your experience with how you made a living through yoga.
Jivana Heyman 1:11:53
Yeah, I hope it doesn't discourage anyone. I mean, one of the things I always like to share though about money is that my favorite classes were the ones where I could get paid through an organization or a program and the students could come for free or low cost. It was just such a great way to take the pressure off of, like, how many people are coming and how much are they paying? But like, I worked at a lot of hospitals and community centers and for the MS Society and organizations like that, and they would hire me to teach a class at a flat rate. And it was wonderful. That was really great.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:12:35
I was just, and maybe we can drop this into show notes, but I was just reading a great Instagram post from Tristan Katz, and he's taught at the School on, you know, Conscious Marketing, and they had just a great post about, you know, stop charging your worth, and what that really means in a capitalist society, and just some new ways to think about how to, you know, be compensated for your offering. So we'll go ahead and share that in the show notes.
Jivana Heyman 1:13:02
Yeah, I would say, I mentioned it earlier that like yoga is free in a sense, like I don't, did I say that? I feel like I thought it. It's just to me, the yoga piece are free, that's teachings that I was given as a gift, and then I'm passing along. I feel like what people are paying for is to help me survive in the world, like if someone pays me, they're getting time with me or helping to support me, pay my mortgage and my electricity bill and all my water and all that. And it's just, I just don't feel like I can even charge for the yoga piece. Do you know what I'm saying?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:13:44
The principles of yoga and business are, you know, they don't quite align. (Yeah.) Which makes this tricky for everybody, as we're all living in a capitalist society, and kind of have to contend with that as we kind of live within the system.
Jivana Heyman 1:14:01
It's funny, as you know, you know, we offer lots of free webinars through Accessible Yoga. And it's like, my favorite thing, I love those offerings. Like, I love teaching for free. And it's interesting, because I know it's like a marketing thing, like, it gets people to come to the trainings and stuff, but I just like it for what it is. Like, I like I like the idea of just giving it away and that, but I, you know, but I also need money, so it's so complex, you know, it's paradoxical, like anything. I guess in the world, there's always both sides. But I guess I just hope that people can find a way, because the teachings are valuable. Yoga teachers are important. They deserve to get paid. They deserve to have their basic needs met, just like anyone else. So I hope people are okay out there, you know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:14:53
It's a tough time and I'd say what you and so many people in our community do such an amazing job of is collaboration. Like, you know, dominant culture kind of doesn't want us to collaborate, because there's a fear that, oh, like, you know, I might, this other person I'm collaborating with might take away my students. But I think that, you know, you've shown, so many people in our community have shown, that collaboration is the way. I think that when we share, like, you know, our community grows, and that's good for everybody.
Jivana Heyman 1:15:26
Yeah, I see some competition happening in yoga and it hurts me. It really does, it pains me when I see that, because it's just, yeah, I don't think, I don't think it's in line or aligned with the teachings. I think collaboration is aligned, which is about generosity, non hoarding, and also just connection, compassion, feeling like, first of all, acknowledging my own limitations, knowing that I can't be everything to everyone there, we have to refer people out and share the platforms that we have. For me as a white man especially, I mean, I really need to use my privilege to platform people who don't have that and so a lot of the work in Accessible Yoga is creating that, you know, having guest teachers in our programs and in our series and trying to share their work with more people, I think is essential and is a yoga practice. So anyway, thanks for saying that. I agree. I think, I also think that's how we're going to get through these challenging years, is through community building. And so yeah, like, I hope this podcast is part of that, platforming the people who I have as guests and also even the people leaving their messages. Like Elisa, Elisa is an amazing yoga teacher, she's in France. And, you know, Rebecca is an amazing yoga therapist. I hope people will reach out to them as well. We can put their links in the show notes. You know, I think it's important that people find, we need to find and build communities to withstand challenging times, you know, and we can do that by making the effort to reach out to people.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:17:08
Thanks for that, Jivana. I think that's a good note to end on today.
Jivana Heyman 1:17:12
Okay. Well, thanks, Deanna, thanks for being here and all your support, and thanks for everyone else helping in the background to make this possible. This is a long episode, but thanks for listening this long with us, being here, and we'll see you next time or hear you next time. Okay, bye.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:17:29
Talk to y'all soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
