Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello and welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm Jivana. My pronouns are he and him, and I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land, and I'm so excited to be with you here today. Thanks for joining me. It means a lot to me, and I'm just really loving this podcast. I'm loving the conversations. Hopefully you've had a chance to listen to some of the episodes I've already shared, they've just been so much fun. And this one, also, this one was really profound. I'm excited about the conversation I had with Melissa Shah, excited to share that with you in a minute. Just excited about the second half of the show, where Deanna and I are taking questions and comments from you our listeners, so we have some really good ones today, so that's fun. Hope you'll stick around to the end to hear those and consider sharing a comment or a question through our voice message system. The links are in the show notes, and also, I just want to give a shout out to our sponsors. Just really grateful to have the support to make this happen and to pay for my team and all the people who make this podcast happen. So thanks to our sponsors, you'll hear their ads throughout the episode. Currently we have Yogamatters beYogi and Offering Tree, so thank you to all three of those organizations for supporting this work.
Jivana Heyman 2:03
And I just wanted to say that what touched me most about Melissa's conversation, I think, or the conversation I had with her, it's just her enthusiasm for practice and the way she's turning it into action. I've been thinking a lot about it with all the turmoil going on in this country with the government right now, and the chaos they're creating, and just, I don't know, I've been feeling a lot of, just feeling emotional about it, and that's part of why I want to talk to Melissa, because I love the activism she's done. And it's not even activism, I shouldn't use the word, because what, what I see in Melissa, I mean, I'll let her speak for herself, but what I see is someone who is naturally allowing their yoga to come off the mat into the world in a really beautiful way. And that's what yoga is to me, it's an inner practice that impacts our outer actions and I just feel like that's the fullness of this path. It's not simply about enlightenment for myself, although that seems like a really lofty goal, and I feel like that we're trained a bit, that that's the goal of yoga. And I don't buy it, I don't think the goal of yoga is my personal enlightenment. I actually think the goal is service, so I can take whatever energy and whatever enlightenment bits I find on my path, whatever tools that support me, whatever practices help me to stay grounded during challenging times like this. Whatever practices help me to regulate my nervous system so I can be resilient in the face of challenges. Those are not only for my benefit, but so that I can be of service to you, to my husband and my family and my friends and my community, whoever that is, and that's Karma Yoga, right? That's turning our actions into service by really focusing on moving into the world and acting in the world in a way that is connected to the truth of who I am, to this inner knowing that yoga gives me the faith that I have.
Jivana Heyman 4:27
And I love that about Melissa. I was really struck by the way she showed up during the fires in LA, she lives in LA, and she'll share about that in the episode. But I just want to say, you know, I live just north of LA, and I have a lot of family impacted by the fires, and it was horrible, and I just saw immediately her sharing the way she was helping to support people that were displaced and working really hard on the ground with her community to share resources and that kind of grassroots service is just so powerful to me, and I think we need more of it. I think that's how we survive these challenging times. So thank you, Melissa, for that and for talking with me. And all right, I'll leave it there, I'll let Melissa talk for herself, and I'll join you at the other side of the conversation with Deanna, and we'll share some listeners comments. And I'll just say, you know, I'm sending thoughts and prayers for all of us to have peace during this challenging time. I know thoughts and prayers seem kind of useless sometimes, but in this case, I think it's energy for a long resistance, knowing that we have what we need inside and when we come together in compassion and loving service, we can really change the world. So that's my prayer for today. All right, thanks again for being here, and let's get into the show.
Jivana Heyman 6:08
I want to tell you about our sponsor, beYogi, which is the insurance company I've been using for years. It's designed specifically for yoga instructors and wellness practitioners like us. You're covered for both professional and general liability, identity protection, and coverage for both online and live classes, which I love, plus they have free webinars to keep you informed and inspired. So head over to beyogi.com/jivana, to get $20 off your beYogi insurance membership. Protect your practice and your peace of mind today. I want to take a moment to thank Offering Tree for sponsoring this podcast. If you're like me, you're passionate about yoga and wellness, but running the business side of things, that can feel overwhelming. Offering Tree gets it. They built an all in one platform specifically for yoga and wellness professionals with tools like scheduling, website building, marketing, and even payment processing. They make managing your business simple and stress free. If you're thinking about simplifying your business, they've extended a special offer from my listeners. Use the link in the show notes and get 50% off your first three months, or 10% off an annual subscription.
Jivana Heyman 7:35
Hi everyone. Thanks for being here. I'm so excited to have our special guest today, Melissa Shah. hey, Melissa,
Melissa Shah 7:42
Hi. Thank you for having me.
Jivana Heyman 7:44
Thanks for being here. How are you doing?
Melissa Shah 7:47
I'm okay. I think, the time we're talking right now is like a week after the multiple fires started in LA and thankfully I'm safe and I'm healthy for the most part, and my home is okay, but it's been really intense and also incredible to see how people are really showing up for each other. And I just feel like there's so many lessons in this past year over and over again, of how more and more people are practically applying this idea that we don't live in isolation, which is so connected to how we practice yoga. So that's been really powerful to see, but I am tired.
Jivana Heyman 8:34
Yeah, I've been following your social media, and I'm just very grateful for the work you're doing. I see that you're really on the ground trying to bring supplies to people and care for the community, which I think is exactly what you're talking about. And it's one thing to talk about it, but it's another thing to do it. And I really appreciate that. I often say I think people don't recognize that activism and social justice is really that, it's really just community care and community organizing. That's what it means to be an activist. And I was way more involved in my past, when I was an AIDS activist, and it was just that, it was just like being involved in helping people, supporting them, caring for them, speaking up when I could, and putting my body on the line too, like being at demonstrations, getting arrested, doing stuff like that. But I think that all comes out of a sense of care, at least it did for me, and I see that in you, I think.
Melissa Shah 9:32
Thank you for that. Yeah, that's really helpful to hear because I think, you know, one thing I've been sitting with the last few days, and I felt this also back earlier in the year when there were many student encampments popping up around the country in support of not just a cease fire, but Palestinian Liberation and, I mean, we don't have to go into all the things that happened during that like, I mean, I think we all know, and the trauma and for some universities, some change, but for a lot, like, really, just lack of change. And I think one thing I noticed then that I'm just actively trying to shift now is this idea that you should just be, go, go, going and doing, like, your 110% in your activism, or even in how you contribute to collective care. And I saw those students who were, like, burning out and we need a lot of mental health support. And when we'd talk a little bit more about it, they would share just how they just really wanted to help, and that motivation, desire to help and to be supportive was kind of overriding almost everything else. And I thought that was, you know, that was really interesting, because I always had this idea in my head that I'm like, oh, I'm a millennial, I guess, and I'm like, we're breaking a lot of our immigrant parents' generational things, right? Like, and everyone is, whether your family coming from family of immigrants or not like you're all like, if you so choose to, you have the power to really break a lot of these cycles that our parents couldn't, that their parents couldn't, etc.
Melissa Shah 11:17
So I guess sometimes I even have this expectation in my head when I talk to someone who's younger and I hear them saying the same words I said maybe years ago, I'm like, oh, there's actually still so much healing that's needed, even with the younger generations, and there's so much support that's still needed. And it was a, it sounds like probably so obvious, right, other people might be like, well, duh. But to me, I was really seeing how obviously every generation is disrupting in their own way, but this idea of perfectionism, even in how you care for others, it just it reminded me how so much of it is actually not just cultural, but, like, societal and all the things. And I think this time with the fires, I'm trying to really rely on the teachings of yoga and my practice, and also trying to openly have conversations with people I'm in community with, like friends, but also like colleagues that are on the ground in LA, and we're all just openly having conversations of, you know, we don't want that to happen here. And if you can't come in today to be here for a few hours to organize supplies, like, don't come, you know, if you feel like you need to rest, go rest, and there's enough support and enough help going around. It's just a matter of being organized, you know, and that takes the ability to actually, again, practice yoga, which means to pause, to understand why am I actually doing what I'm doing? And that can be uncomfortable because it takes time. And right now, I just see urgency taking over so much, and in some places it can be useful. But I think now we're seeing a week out, we'll see weeks and months out that acting out of urgency all the time, it's just not sustainable and then we're just repeating these same cycles of, I'm just never doing enough.
Jivana Heyman 13:05
Yeah and burnout, and then kind of giving up, I think, yeah, not doing anything, maybe. Because I I went through that, I definitely got burned out during my AIDS activism. I mean that's what really got me into yoga, to be honest, was just that I was burned out. I had been just doing way too much. And I was, I hadn't processed the grief and the loss of so many of my friends being sick and dying back then and I was trying to process it through the activism itself, like by actually doing, you know, which is a way, but it wasn't enough, and I needed a spiritual practice. And I that's where I found yoga, again, I mean, I had practice with my grandmother when I was a child, but it was in my early 20s when I kind of just went back to yoga and it just totally changed my life. It just was like, oh, wow, I see, I can actually care for myself. And then I realized, oh, I can share this with my community too. And so that's when I started, basically Accessible Yoga started with that idea of like, oh, I can bring yoga into this activism world, because I that's exactly what I saw. Everyone was burnt out. Either they were actually sick themselves, or they were making themselves just so overwhelmed and stressed, because it was like the system is made that way. I mean, it's really oppressive. It was really hard. It felt like no one was listening to us, that we were alone, and we were, like, all we had was each other, honestly. But I appreciate the way you talk about it in generations, because I feel like one of the saddest things for me about the AIDS epidemic is that so many of my peer group died like, I know that's so obvious, but it's like gay men, especially around like in their late 50s and 60s, are few and far between, because so many died of AIDS. And I feel like we learned so much back then, through that, through the AIDS epidemic and and so much of that wisdom was lost because people died. And so it just feels sad to me like, oh, every generation has to figure this out again, like we all, you know, it's a constant struggle. And I feel like as an older queer person, I kind of have a responsibility to talk about it too, and I don't know if I talk about it enough, honestly.
Melissa Shah 15:19
Yeah. I mean, I just really appreciate, I don't know, just sharing your experience with that. And I feel like, you know, we've had so many conversations, and, you know, online, offline, all the things. And I think that was the first time I really heard you say it that way. And, yeah, it was really powerful.
Jivana Heyman 15:38
Yeah, well, thanks for bringing it up. I appreciate what you shared, I mean, and the and the work you're doing and I love, I love this idea of, well, it's actually what self care was created for, right? Originally, it was like black women civil rights activists who created self care and that concept, and of course, yoga existed, but they had this like idea of self care as part of social justice movements. [That's right.] Yeah. [That's right.] And I think there's so much wisdom there, you know that they were sharing with us. But that's what self care really is, to actually help us support ourselves so that we can support each other. And actually, that goes back to yoga, right? Where yoga is really about service anyway. [That's right.] Yay, okay, well, we're definitely in agreement. So Thanks, Melissa. I wanted to get to the question that I've been asking everyone in this podcast series. As you know, this is my 30th year of teaching, and I'm asking people to reflect with me and to look at, you know, maybe sharing something from your experience. I know you've been practicing for a long time, and I'm curious if there's one teaching or story or experience that stays with you. I mean, there's probably many, I of course, I could think of tons too, but like, if there's one that stands out that you'd be willing to share with me about, yeah, something that you found or experienced that is kind of supporting you today as you move forward in your life. [I have three.] Three? Okay, cool.
Melissa Shah 17:15
You can choose one or two. And I do feel like they're all connected. You know, when you first sent me the email, asking me about the podcast, like, I'll share the first thing that popped up into my head about, like, story or teaching, and it's kind of a story and a teaching and a practice, like all in one and I've shared this with many of my one on one clients, but the quote from Krishnamacharya that you're totally familiar with, I'm sure, that when it comes to offering yoga therapy or like teaching yoga therapy, and he said, "Teach what's inside of you." So I interpret that as like, teach what you know and teach what you've integrated. But then he also says, "But not as it applies to you, as it applies to the other." And it always gives me chills when I think about that quote, because I've heard it hundreds of times, I've had, like, my teachers as an adult, really, like, through my, through more of my formal yoga therapy training really embody that, but also, like, bring it up over and over and over again as a reminder of, yes, teach what you know. Don't try to teach things that you just learned yesterday, that you haven't actually practiced or integrated, or which we, I see so much of, right, in our Western yoga and wellness culture. Again, coming back to that conversation on activism, how urgency even comes through, even in how people learn to teach, and what ideas or patterns are kind of reinforced that are already so predominant in our dominant culture, even in trainings. And I think a big part of that is urgency, is perfection, and also, you know, you need to teach more. You need to teach more and more things.
Melissa Shah 19:10
And I don't think that there's anyone out there, or I would hope there's anyone out there that's consciously being like, I'm going to teach a training that is going to tell people they need to be perfect. I think in most trainings, at least I've taught, and I feel like teachers are trying to be really conscious of, take your time, like, this is just an introduction. But again, when we come back to culturally and as a society, like, there's so much more that I think us as teachers or as yoga therapists, I think, need to do, in addition to just teaching the student and how we participate in society, like how we show up. And I guess this piece around "teach what you know," has really stayed with me, because it has really pushed me to not offer yoga therapy or create program stuff out of a place of urgency, which I definitely have felt before. For sure, there's definitely a feeling of especially being like a South Asian, a South Asian person, or Indian person, Indian American person teaching yoga, there's definitely some urgency there that's come up over the years, where I'm like, if I'm not going to do it, they're just going to choose some other white person that they can bring in instead. Or like, if they say they're going to pay me X amount and I want to get paid more, they're just going to not give me the job and hire someone else that's willing to do it for free, and that's actually happened many times.
Melissa Shah 20:37
But this piece around teaching what is inside of you comes back again and again to, are you doing your practice? Are you connected to your teachers and are you giving yourself time to actually digest the information and let the insights come as they need to? And that might mean you only know how to teach five things, and that's fantastic. And then there's this other piece of that of "but not as it applies to you." And that always has stayed with me for years and years and years, and it still does, because, especially working one on one, if I'm not super connected to myself or not, like processing or digesting my own stuff, then when I'm working one on one, and someone's like, also South Asian, also around the same age, like femme, all the things I like see myself in them, right? And then, and then they like have similar patterns and it's so easy to want to relate. And relating is really helpful, because we're also human beings, and we need relationships. And it's sometimes hard to see the client or the person you're teaching clearly because, for who they are, their own unique experience, because you're like, "Oh, I get it, like, I did that too. Like, you know, this is what you should do." And so this piece around like, not as it applies to you, is like, this balance of drawing wisdom from what has been useful for you, but really as it's actually relevant for that person's actual experience, which requires for you to be able to see them as clearly as any human possibly can. So I want to pause there for a moment, because I'm so curious about your thoughts.
Jivana Heyman 22:16
Yeah, no, I have so many thoughts. Oh, my God, I love that quote and and the issues that it brings up. I had, yeah, I have lots of thoughts. Well, one is that, you know, for in the Accessible Yoga community, what I've noticed often is that there are a lot of people who maybe don't look like a yoga teacher and so they don't see themselves in that role. And so then even though they do have a lot of experience and practice, they don't teach. And so oftentimes I find myself encouraging people to be the teacher, to like, actually step out of the role of student and to share, you know, and so it's funny, because that's where I go mostly, in my mind, is like, actually most of the people I know, and probably a lot of our listeners, are actually really experienced, really knowledgeable, and they just don't feel like confident enough because society doesn't support marginalized folks to be in the role of leader and teacher. And so that that is one thought I had to like, I think that a lot of times my students, I hear them feeling (and when I say students, I mean people, like newer teachers especially), just don't have the confidence to take that leap. So I'm always, like, pushing. Just, just do it. Like, teach your friends, teach your your family, and just start sharing and allow yourself to be in that role. But I really love the question about feeling it or getting it in yourself and then sharing. And to me that is such an important, I don't know, concept and question for yoga teachers in general, is like, what is that relationship, first of all, with your the teacher/student or teacher/client. Like, what is that relationship? And how does yoga fit into that relationship, which is to find the practice, find the truth that you feel in yourself, in your practice, and then find a way to communicate it that's respectful to their individual experience. You know what I mean? Exactly what you said. I think there's, it's such a important and subtle thing. It sounds simple, but it's so hard to do to really get it and then share it without completely projecting my experience onto them. Like, it's so interesting.
Melissa Shah 24:36
Yeah, it is. I think it is a really tricky balance. And again, coming back to teaching what is inside of you is like, like you were saying for a lot of the listeners like that, where they may not want to take on that role of teacher, or not want to, but maybe are unsure if they can, right? Like they actually have the skills, the experience, and all the things. But again, this comes back to, I think, something even bigger than just you and me, right? Like the societal norms and all of the things. And this piece around, like, what's inside of you is, like, one of my teachers, Chase, like, I think when I first started kind of coming back to yoga therapy, it's kind of like, well, growing up studying yoga, that's like, in I was in a different tradition, but it was still yoga therapy, just in a different way. And then as an adult, kind of coming back to it, I remember teachers just saying, like, Chase, just saying, for a little while, when you're giving people practices, you're probably just going to give some, like, what is your practice for a little bit. Not because you're saying, like, I don't know anything else but this, but because that's what you're doing all the time. And so it's it can be tricky in the beginning to have the confidence to actually choose things for a practice that's not something that you're physically or mentally or emotionally doing all the time. Over time, as, you know I wouldn't even say as you learn more, but as you give yourself time to just be with the practice and let what you've learned in your trainings, like the Accessible Yoga Training or others, like, just really let it digest. Like, it'll literally, like, I really believe, and I tell this to my mentees all the time, like, it will reveal itself to you when you need it, it will come. And then a year later these other options that you've learned from Jivana way back when, that'll come up and be like, "Oh, right, I can see things differently now. I see this person's body. I see what they're doing. I see the function of what I what I'm inviting them to do. And so here all the different ways it can look." Even if you had learned it before, but it hadn't really settled in. And I think that's that piece around the "what's inside of you and how applies to the other." It's like, yeah, especially if you're new to teaching for a little while, you're probably going to teach a lot of stuff that just makes sense for your body. Like, that's completely normal, you know? But I'm thinking more like what's the direction, you know? That can't, that can't be, that can't be sustained forever, right?
Jivana Heyman 26:59
I love that. I love this, "what's inside of you" actually. To me it's also a question of, like, why are you teaching? What is it that you love about the practice, what has it given you, and what have you found and how can you share that? And I think sometimes that gets lost because we think, oh, I have to, here's the sequence that my teacher told me to share, or this is what I think this person needs in a very analytical way and sometimes the heart of it is lost. And I think that's so beautiful, like, "teach what's inside of you." Like, to me, that yoga connects me to myself, or that it fills me with joy or love or whatever, you know, that yoga gives me so much. That's what I want people to experience and that is what I'm trying to do when I'm teaching.
Melissa Shah 27:46
Yeah, I love that. There's this other piece here and I think it's so connected, especially for the listeners, and I'm not sure if it came from Mr. Desikachar or from one of his students, or from one of my teachers, but somewhere in that vein, is where it came from. But this piece that popped up when we were kind of chatting before we started the podcast, it just popped into my brain of coming back to like, cultural, you know, Western cultural norms, like, what is actually free will. Like, what do we mean when we say freedom? And one of my teachers, Chase, he was really the first one I think that I [is this Chase Bossart?] said it in a way, he just said it at the right time, at the right age for me, where it just clicked. Whereas I think back when I was younger, my teacher, Sudhir Parikh, he also would actually say similar things, but I was, like, 13 years old and I'm just like, I can do whatever I want. And now when that same teacher, when he said stuff now I'm like, okay, this, this makes more sense now, like I get it. But this idea about free will, I think, is really significant for me at this time in my life where I'm really trying, like every day, to move away from perfectionism, have more compassion for myself, even consider like, okay, well, this is what my 100% could look like. Can I just do like the 80% version? And maybe that's actually still, like 100% because I'm so used to, like operating at like 200, I don't know.
Melissa Shah 29:27
And so this idea of free will and freedom comes from the Sutras, of course, too. And it comes back to we were talking about earlier, like, even with teaching, like, why are you doing what you're doing? And if you are clear on the motivation behind the decisions you make and your actions, then that is actually what can bring us toward true free will. And oftentimes, I think that, and this is can be definitely an unpopular opinion. I think that, because perfectionism is such a big thing in our culture, we have, very rightfully so, all of these ways to be like, you know, I need to be more intuitive. I'm just going to do whatever I feel in the moment. But this idea of intuition, like, it's even more than that, you know. And if what's leading me throughout my decisions is like, you know, my system being out of balance right now, my nervous system not being very regulated at the moment, rightfully so, then it's not that I can't trust what comes to mind, it's that I also need to know that okay, what am I deciding because of my state in this moment and what is really coming from my inner knowing? And ultimately our yoga practice is to bring us closer and closer to that inner knowing, which is just who we really are. And ultimately actions are coming from that place, and to me, I'm like, that's intuition, you know, and that's really freaking hard.
Melissa Shah 30:46
But that application of that teaching in my life right now and for my teaching has been really useful, because, it's one thing to tell my clients, like, you know, have compassion for yourself. You don't need to do the practice every day. Like, it's not a big deal, whatever. But it's another thing to go a little bit deeper to, well, let's talk about what's the root cause behind the barrier you're feeling? Instead of, you know, instead of being like, whenever I get to it, I get to it like, that's actually completely fine, but you should be aware of why that's actually happening for you, because that's what's going to give you, over time, that sense of agency back. You know, even if, like, I was really tired, you know, the other day, and, you know, I could have done a yoga nidra practice or whatever, and I laid on the couch with my partner and I was like, I'm just gonna watch an hour of TV and I don't care, you know. But there was a part of me that, I'm like, okay, well, I know the function of why I'm doing this right now. Like, my system's in overdrive, I want to check out. I want to not think, and I can have all the judgment and criticism of that, but there's a reason why I need to do this right now, and this is what I'm going to do. And it doesn't mean you make, like, the right choice. It's not what it's about. It's giving yourself that power back.
Jivana Heyman 31:59
Yes, I love that. I was just talking to someone about that yesterday who was saying, you know, they're gonna, like, they were kind of doing a little bit of the new year, new me thing, where they're like, I'm going to do this. My plan is I'm going to have, you know, three hours in the morning where I work on this project, and then, you know, time to prep my food for the day. And they had, like, created a whole new structure for themselves. And I said, you know, it's great to have that intention and that goal of how you imagine your life, but I think you have to look at what you're currently doing and why. Like, the thing is you're making choices all the time and you have to trust yourself, like, there's a reason for all the things you've chosen to do. And so rather than just throw it away, just kind of think, oh, wow, look, this is what I'm choosing right now. Like, I am choosing this. I'm choosing to do this right now and to do that next, and to really invest in your current situation a little bit more, and then think maybe there's something here that could evolve. And think of it as a slow evolution, because I think that's where you lose agency, actually, like you said, is if you think, "I should be something else, I shouldn't be where I am now."
Jivana Heyman 32:57
So I think that's a beautiful way of teaching, actually. And also, to me, there's something very much like Western kind of, almost, I would say, diet culture, healthism, approach of like you should be something you you aren't enough, you need to be something else. That kind of lack mentality that I think is just so normal in our western societies that feeds into a yoga culture where we think, oh, this is yoga to change and to become something else, rather than yoga to be right, just to be who you are, whatever that means, to actually invest in making whatever you're doing now special and sacred. And that came up in another podcast episode earlier. I just feel like I go back to that all the time, that I feel like what yoga is doing for me is allowing me to see the choices I'm making as special and sacred and to just appreciate life as it is, rather than to force something. [Yeah, that's right.] Although force is another word, isn't it, for Hatha Yoga? [laughing]
Melissa Shah 34:13
Well I think that, just like really quick, I think that connects to this concept of yogakshema, like the, I think the visual I'm remembering is kind of like a staircase, from I think Mr. Desikachar in Viniyoga. But this staircase approach, like, what you're saying is like, you know, in the new year, instead of bringing all the things you can do in the morning, the yoga is like, take the one step and the yogakshema is like, okay, now we sustain. So you take a step, and you have the landing. You take the step, you have the landing. And coming back to the very first thing we talked about teaching what's inside of you is like, we'll take the step, learn the thing, and then just give yourself some time to actually experience it and do it. Because yoga, ultimately, it's an experiential practice. You could tell me all day, like, hey, Melissa, I really want you to try this meditation, it's really, really good, and blah, blah, blah, blah. But if I've never meditated before, I first need to have an experience that's also appropriate for me, right? And I think that's a big part of this whole not needing to accumulate more and more information when what we already have is not yet, even some of what we have is not fully digested. Like, it's okay to, like, take a training and then not take one for several years. That's fine, you know,
Jivana Heyman 35:28
Right. It's like, a little bit of yoga goes a really long way, and sometimes more isn't better. It's like, just enjoy the little bit you have. Like, I often tell people it's okay to teach the same sequence every class. You can change one little thing if you want, but it's like, there's something so soothing about it, just, it's calming. I think that's what, you know, we lose track of too, is like that we're trying to actually not becomes more stimulated, but to actually just become more quiet, to do less, appreciate what we have. I don't know, to me, that's a different approach than what we see in most yoga trainings. [And I think...] Oh sorry, go ahead.
Melissa Shah 36:05
I was just gonna say I think repetition is highly underrated. [Yeah, exactly]. I'm trying to bring it back.
Jivana Heyman 36:09
Yeah, repetition, I mean, it can feel boring, but it's like, if it's something that I love or that I enjoy, something I found some benefit from, I'm going to want to do it again. And I think that's where the benefit of repetition comes in, is like, well, maybe I don't enjoy it right at first, but if I do it enough, I can say, oh, I see there's some benefit here. Then I want to do it more, and actually becomes a natural part of my life where I don't even have to think about it anymore, like I just naturally want that. It's like, I just go to meditate, because that feels good. [Exactly.] I was gonna say, you know, we don't have a lot of time, and you had mentioned three things, and I just feel like, did we get to them? Because I don't want to miss out. [We did! We got to all three somehow.] Okay, that's good, because I just want to hear all the things from you. That was amazing. You have such wisdom and I really appreciate, also, there's something, I mean you always like bring in such powerful teachings. That's my experience of you, like, huge ideas that I end up wanting to reflect on for a long time. Wow. Thanks, Melissa,
Melissa Shah 37:20
Thank you. I feel the same way about you. I just wrote down this piece. I feel like I'm not going to journal if my book is not on my desk now, so now I just keep it right next to my computer. And I wrote down this piece around investing and I it's a word I've not really used, I think, before when I think about not just my personal practice, but really, like, what I'm doing throughout the day. Like, I may have thought about it with different words, but this one just like, again, it's like, it's clicking at the right time for me, and I need it right now, especially with the aftermath of all of these fires. And I keep coming back to like, I need to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that also creates a lot more space and simplicity to be like, well, actually, I can hand all these other things off to someone else who actually has a capacity to drive around town, maybe I don't need to do that every single day. This piece around like, you know, if you are gonna watch a show or do your practice or do something else, it's like, take that time to invest, you know, just make it special. And there's, I don't know if this is a teaching, maybe in Buddhism, I'm trying to remember, but like this idea of finding sacred in the ordinary, so even, like washing the dishes or making your tea in the present.
Jivana Heyman 38:38
Definitely, it's very Zen, but it's kind of an all spiritual practices to be in the present moment, right? Yeah and I think it all fits together. I think one of the biggest challenges to me in teaching yoga and practicing is that conflict or what feels like a paradox of acceptance and change, and how those two things actually kind of work together. And it's hard to put into words, you know, this idea of being totally okay and at peace with what is. Completely accepting this moment and also, at the same time, having an intention, having a goal, having a direction of movement that I want for myself. You know, there's something paradoxical about it to me, but I think it works.
Melissa Shah 39:28
No, I think that they're actually, I think a yoga practice are those two things together. There's a definition of yoga, sangati, and it's basically how things are linked together, the connection between the knowledge you have and the choice that you're making. So I just feel like that's the same thing, kind of, the acceptance and change where you have the clarity and awareness there, but then that's actually only one part of the practice. So again, if we get so intellectual and in our heads and learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, but then the choice, the other part of sangati is like the application, or you have this awareness now, are you actually willing to operate differently, though? When that situation comes up again, can you act out of a different pattern? I think those two together are the actual yoga, so I think they totally go together, and they're both, not that they're always linear, but you actually really need both.
Jivana Heyman 40:19
Yeah, because to me one of the themes, right, is calming the mind, or just being, you know, at peace. Like in the Gita, like it says equanimity of mind is yoga. And, to me that's acceptance and being present with what is, being okay. Because otherwise we get all disturbed and it causes stress, like what we call, in the West, this stress response and so we're trying to kind of counteract that by being okay with what is. At the same time, it's like, we want something positive, we want good things, we want people to be at peace. And so it reminds me a bit of the prayers that you can do, meta meditation. You know, when you think may all people be at peace, may you be at peace, may you be healthy. But I just feel like, to me, it's like that practice of meta is like an interesting one, because it's actually a prayer or a wish for something. It's not just accepting what is. It's actually wishing well. And I feel like that's kind of how I work those two things together. It's like, yes, I accept what is now, but also I pray for the health and well being of all, including myself, at the same time. Do you know what I mean?
Melissa Shah 41:41
Totally, totally. I mean, one of my teachers, Becky, just reached out earlier this week about, and I'm not as familiar with the meta meditations as much, like I know a little bit, but she reached out, she's like, you know, I'm doing the Tonglen Meditation every day for for you and everyone in LA. And one thing that she would always tell me when that's not accessible, even like, the type of like meditation you're talking about, she would always just say, like, we check in, what's your state right now? And it doesn't mean that again, you have to be able to exercise that kind of compassion or anything right in this moment. It's just getting more curious. Instead of being again, I need to be somewhere that I'm not, it's like coming at it with curiosity, just even interest, you know, of what is my state? Am I actually tending to it? And how is it actually influencing how I'm even able to see things around me?
Jivana Heyman 42:36
Yeah, obviously, I'm not that familiar with it either, but I just see it clearly there. In yoga it's harder to find that teaching, I would say maybe around non attachment probably, if you think about it. Or if you think about Bhakti Yoga or Karma Yoga, like service and devotion, I think we can find that same idea, that you're at peace with what is and yet you also have positive feelings and prayers for everyone, including yourself. And that is really essential to my practice, personally. And I actually think goes back to where we started again, also to this idea of taking care of the community and yoga as community care and self care. Anyway, thank you, Melissa, wow, that was a lot. Amazing.
Melissa Shah 43:25
Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 43:26
You're incredible. All right, thanks so much for being here. Shall we leave it there? Okay bye.
Jivana Heyman 43:50
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Jivana Heyman 44:32
Hey, welcome back, everyone. Hey, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:35
Hey, Jivana. How's it going?
Jivana Heyman 44:38
Okay, I think, pretty good. How about you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 44:43
The same. Okay, all things considering, but you just came off of a super inspirational talk with Melissa.
Jivana Heyman 44:49
Yeah, yeah. She's so awesome. I love what she was sharing about and the way she really showed up for people after the fire. And I mentioned it in the interview, but, you know, she was actually really serving the community. It's it was beautiful to watch, and I feel like that's yoga. She was really showing us what yoga is in practice. What did you think? What did you like about it?
Deanna Michalopoulos 45:15
It was also so interesting that both of you kind of discussed how every generation is disrupting in their own way, this idea of perfectionism so they can show up and do the work that's required, and how we're kind of maybe learning a little bit more as a collective that we don't live in isolation. And that's so connected. Melissa said this with how we practice yoga. So that's been pretty powerful to see.
Jivana Heyman 45:38
It's so interesting the ways that yoga is a living practice. You know, it's funny. I actually saw two people share about that on social media today, two separate people share about yoga as a living practice. And I think that's such an interesting concept. Because, on the one hand, like I know Melissa also is very traditional, like she really has such great respect and honor for the tradition, and really tries to connect back to it, as I do. At the same time, I do feel like there's a need to make it applicable for every generation and every moment. And that's what makes it a living practice, is that it's both a tradition and it's alive.
Deanna Michalopoulos 46:20
You mentioned this in your conversation with Scottee, but just this idea of paradox, how this is an ancient practice, you can still feel so rooted in it today, which makes it timeless in that way. And I think, you know, maybe that's part of what makes us all human. It's just this is this practice that's here, and we're practicing every single day, and we're never quite there, but we're all trying to do our best to get closer to it.
Jivana Heyman 46:46
Yeah. I mean, there's so much paradox in these teachings, and I think it can be hard. It's like, my left brain doesn't really want to accept these paradoxes. Part of me wants the answer, like, in straightforward, like, clear terms. And then my right brain is like, sure, that's okay, it can be a contradiction. You know, I kind of love the idea of two supposedly opposing truths, you know, dialectic, that's the word. I love the idea of a dialectic. Do you know that one, that term?
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:23
You just taught me. [laughing]
Jivana Heyman 47:27
There's a whole form of therapy, DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, which is about that, really learning how to work with your own mind and be able to accept two seemingly opposed truths, which is, you know, just something that's hard, I think, to do as a human. We want it to all just be clear and straightforward, but that's just not how life is. It tends to be a little muddy and it's more like a watercolor than a black and white print. Do you know what I'm saying?
Deanna Michalopoulos 47:59
It reminds me of a teaching I once learned from Dr. Gail Parker, who's presenting in another training, and it was this idea of, kind of like having your two hands, maybe in like loose fists, and bringing your attention to one, and then bringing your attention to the other, and you just kind of alternate. And to me, that's a practice that I can return to often when it feels like, you know, there are just two opposing thoughts that are absolutely true, just like when you practice that with your physical self, with your mind, your intention, it makes it tangible.
Jivana Heyman 48:30
I love that, awesome. So do we have some more questions or comments from listeners? Like, I love this part. I love hearing from people, and I love sharing their words and hearing their voices. I've really enjoyed this part of the podcast. So what do we have today?
Deanna Michalopoulos 48:49
Yes, we're going to share several questions and stories. The first one is from Sally Denton, and so I will just read what she wrote. "For me, the adventure has been about seeing remarkable things from students in my class, like the woman, a Bolivian American, who came to class a week after she was hospitalized with a heart attack because the community was so important to her, and the woman who came to class three weeks after her knee replacement. I am so inspired on a weekly basis, they are the embodiment of yoga, love, and community, with so much support for each other. It is humbling, really.
Jivana Heyman 49:25
I love Sally. She does such great work, and we've been connected for many years. And, you know, I just, I can picture her and her classes, because I know that she does such a great job in building that community. Because, in some ways, like, it's okay to rest if you just had surgery, maybe just take it easy. But on the other hand, I can see exactly what she's talking about, which is that in her classes, it's not so much about about physical practice. It's much more about connecting, seeing your friends, and feeling like you're not alone. I just feel like that's maybe the most important thing about yoga, to be honest, that we barely talk about, and that is to deal with isolation. And you know, I was hearing someone talk about that the other day, that isolation is the most damaging thing to our health, and I just feel like yoga offers such a beautiful way of coming together and in community with like minded people. It's really amazing.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:26
I think that came to the forefront too, when the pandemic started. I think people showed up for Zooms, not necessarily just because of the asana classes, right? Like it was really people were drawn to communities, and there was so much more happening there than the postures. So I felt and saw and experienced that firsthand.
Jivana Heyman 50:45
Yeah, totally. I loved the transition to online teaching. I was just thinking about that because I I really felt that I could connect to people all over the world, and we could join at any time, and could find community that you felt connected with. I just feel like it was really like the bright light in that challenging time was this new way to connect. I know people were already online, but it just felt like such an amazing tool that we have to be able to reach out and still, I love teaching online. So awesome. Anyway, thanks Sally, for sharing that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:28
And speaking of technology, we have our voicemail box set up, which is also pretty cool and exciting. If it's okay, can I share a voicemail from Leslie?
Lesley 51:41
Jivana, thank you so much for your podcast. I've been listening and joining some of the courses through the Accessible Yoga School and looking forward to the one coming up in March. My name is Lesley, I'm an Occupational Therapist in Stouffville, Ontario, Canada, near Toronto, and I have really been searching for something to help make yoga accessible for the population I work with, which is mainly children with cerebral palsy. A lot of them want to get out in the community and join different activities, including yoga, but it's not fully accessible for them, even AquaFit and aquatic therapy, I've done a bit with kids with special needs. But I find they're just limited and end up doing lots of therapy in their lives, but not any fun fitness related activities that would bring a lot of social and community to their lives. So I'm really looking forward to getting in deeper with my yoga training as a regular yoga instructor, and broadening it and overlapping it into my Occupational Therapy world and bringing yoga to everybody. I've started my own Instagram at mindbodyflow_yoga. Underscore sorry, mindbodyflow underscore yoga, and I'm starting a new brand to make it bring it accessible to every body. So similar to your book.
Jivana Heyman 53:10
Did it cut off there?
Deanna Michalopoulos 53:13
Our voicemails are only 90 seconds. So sorry, Lesley.
Jivana Heyman 53:18
So we cut her off?
Jivana Heyman 53:19
We cut her off, but that was a great message.
Jivana Heyman 53:22
I'm sorry, Lesley, yeah, I think we got, I think we got the message though and I appreciate that her focus is so close to mine, and that she's interested in joining our Accessible Yoga Training Online in March. I was excited to hear that part. In fact, I'd love to talk about the training a little bit, but to answer her other I think it was a question to talk about the kids she's working with, I mean, I actually think teaching kids yoga is the hardest kind of teaching. I did a lot when my kids, you know, I mean, I have two kids, for those people who don't know, my husband and I adopted two kids at birth, and so now they're, gosh, 23 and 19. But when they were going through school, I often volunteered to teach yoga in their classes, which I kind of hated, honestly, it was so hard. I'm just saying, teaching kids, I couldn't get their attention. It was like so much work to get them to focus. And I mean, I tried to teach my kids yoga as they're little. I mean, it was relatively successful, except now neither of them practice. But anyway, I basically refer people out when they ask about kids. So I would recommend, you know, I mean, maybe for Lesley, she could probably benefit from the Accessible Yoga Training or I'm going to talk to Lesley directly, you can benefit from the Accessible Yoga Training, I think because I offer some really basic skills that I think apply in every setting with yoga, like how to adapt, how to do practice in a chair or client practice in bed or couch, how to bring in other aspects of yoga into your teaching, all aspects of accessibility, working with disabled folks, and I think that all applies to kids. But if you want to learn from people that focus just on kids, you know you can look into the work of Sonia Sumar is really well known, she's an incredible teacher. There's other people like Shawnee Thornton Hardy, she's done a bunch of work. She has some new a new book out about yoga therapy for kids and teens, that's a really nice book. And there's so many others, I can't even begin to list them. But I would just say that I hope you'll join me in March for the online training, and I'm really excited about it, and maybe Deanna, can we take a moment to just talk about the training, to kind of do a little pitch for that?
Deanna Michalopoulos 55:39
Let's do a pitch, because we tweaked it for the spring, didn't we?
Jivana Heyman 55:43
Yeah, so we added, we changed a little bit of the content and added a few more hours of teaching. And so actually, it's a total of 50 hours now, 50 hour program. There's some people joining live, some of the guest faculty would be joining live, who had only done pre recorded before, and I just feel I'm just really excited, because I feel like to me again, this is my 30th year of teaching. It's taken me about 30 years to really come up with a program that I feel can just give the basic foundational information about making yoga accessible. Like, that's my goal here, is to give just enough for people who either already are yoga teachers or starting on their journey, so they can feel like they're they have the confidence to go and do it. There's so many aspects of accessibility that I think require further study. Like, if you're going to work with a special population, like kids, you can then go and study that, or say you're going to work with people with cancer, you can go and take special cancer trainings or something like that. But the goal of my program is more like Accessible Yoga 101, to just give the basic foundational information. To be honest, I really feel like all yoga teachers need this information, so maybe we just make it a requirement. We just say, it's required. I don't know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:08
101, but at the same time, you take away so much information from your training that you can directly apply to your classes, that it's just like, I just feel like teachers are already then so much more ahead, and can offer their material to so many more students in this way, and can make it accessible for anyone who walks into class.
Jivana Heyman 57:27
I hope so. Maybe we can ask listeners to leave messages about that, like testimonials, if they've taken the training, I'd love to hear from you if it's been helpful at all, you can always leave me a message. Anyway, so what else? Do we have any more messages today?
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:44
Well, there's actually one story that was submitted and I want to share it because it kind of aligns with what you and Melissa were talking about as it relates to perfection. So this is a really beautiful story from Jackie Driscoll, thank you so much for sharing it. And Jackie, we just shortened it just a little bit, but it's so beautiful that we're going to go ahead and read it right now. "In my early days of yoga practice, I was obsessed with achieving the perfect posture, the deepest stretch. I would push myself relentlessly striving for the ideal. My focus was solely on the end goal, the peak pose, and I often felt frustrated and discouraged when I couldn't achieve what I perceived as quote, unquote, success. One day, I was practicing with a dear teacher of mine near a willow tree, its branches swayed gracefully in the breeze, bending and yielding with each gust of wind. It wasn't striving to be rigid or upright. It simply was flowing with the natural rhythm of the wind. This site struck us deeply. The willow tree wasn't wrong because it wasn't perfectly straight. Was beautiful in its fluidity, its acceptance of the present moment. It wasn't resisting the wind, it was dancing with it. This observation shifted my perspective. I began to understand that yoga is not just about achieving a particular pose, it's about connecting with my body and breath in the present moment. It's about honoring where I am in my journey, accepting my limitations, and cultivating inner peace amidst the ever changing flow of life. Just like the willow tree, I can learn to flow with the ebbs and flows of life, accepting the challenges and celebrating the victories, I can cultivate inner strength and resilience by honoring my current abilities and allowing them to guide my path forward. This teaching has been invaluable to me, especially during challenging times. It has provided me with the grace and acceptance I need to navigate through periods of uncertainty and limitation. It has reminded me that my journey is not linear and that healing and growth are ongoing processes. By embracing the present moment with compassion and acceptance, I could find peace within myself and continue to move forward on my yoga path with renewed strength and inspiration.
Jivana Heyman 59:53
Wow, that's so beautifu!l! I love that. In fact, it's funny, because when you first said it, I thought you, I thought you said I was practicing with my teacher, the willow tree. That's kind of how I heard you. I was like, yeah! But she's like, with her teacher under a willow tree. But it's like, yeah, actually, our teachers are trees and nature. I feel like that. I feel like I have many teachers in nature that I go to all the time, you know, and to learn that lesson about, I don't know, the word, fluidity, acceptance, about honoring and accepting. It just felt really, I don't know. Yeah, I could just really connect with that. What do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:44
Same. Nature is our greatest teacher and it's easy to kind of, you know, skip out on that walk, or, you know, just be and pay attention to the things like the trees around us. But yeah, undoubtedly, every time there's a lesson there, and that's beautiful for Jackie to share that with us. Jackie, I hope you've written that down and shared it somewhere too.
Jivana Heyman 1:01:07
Yeah, that's a beautiful story, it's like a story you could tell or like a short article you could write and share in the world. It's so important. Also, I feel like there's another message in that story of embracing our differences that I think is really important, and I kind of love that, and I appreciate her sharing that message, because I think that's really at the heart of Accessible Yoga, is that sometimes it's a misunderstanding. You know, people think yoga is about changing yourself to become something else, you know. Becoming, the idea of becoming. But what are we becoming in yoga? I think just more of ourselves, which is not about looking like your teacher, looking like the other students. It's actually just an inner evolution that I could hear in that story. Yeah, so I just, I'm grateful to hear that message echoed more, and I feel like we can't say it enough, and I think it just shifts the way we practice and teach yoga, so that it becomes like a journey back inside, rather than another way that we're just trying to do more and be, you know, be different. And I just think that's not, that's not what it's about. Yeah, anyway, so should we leave it there for today? Do you have any other thoughts?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:47
Let's leave it there.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:49
Okay, thanks everyone, and thanks Deanna. Thanks Melissa, for a great interview. And until next time, take care.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:02:59
Bye, everyone.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
