Jivana Heyman 0:37
Hello, welcome to the Accessible Yoga Podcast. I'm so happy that you're here. I'm Jivana, and my pronouns are he and him. I'm joining you from Santa Barbara, California, which is Chumash land. And you know, this is a really great episode. I just want to say I'm very excited that you joined me. I had such a wonderful conversation with Tamika Caston-Miller, and I'm really looking forward to sharing that with you. She has so much to share, and there's just so many incredible parts. I've already listened to it a couple times myself, and then after that episode, after the interview, Deanna and I come back and we share some really sweet messages from our listeners. Thank you so much for leaving those, you can always leave a message. Leave a message for me, a voice message through the link in our show notes and or on our website. Or you can leave a written message through a Google form that we have there. I'd love to hear from you.
Jivana Heyman 1:35
I'd also love if you would consider leaving a review for the podcast. That actually makes a huge difference in terms of people finding this podcast, and I have to say, I'm really excited, and I'll say, proud of what we're creating here. I feel like, you know, these episodes so far have been really wonderful. I've had such amazing conversations. I think it was a good idea to do this. It's such a wonderful way to celebrate 30 years of teaching, it's really been this incredible gift that keeps on giving. Conversations with the yoga teachers, sharing about something special that they found on their journey. It's just been incredibly meaningful and touching to me. And you know, it's funny, I've been teaching a lot recently. I'm teaching in person and teaching online, just like tons, and it makes me so happy. You know, there's so much happening in the world, and things have been really scary and upsetting, and I was feeling really depressed for like, a minute there, but I'm trying to move on, like, I just can't let it get to me. I mean, I want to teach and share, because I feel like we need yoga more now than ever. You know Deanna, and I talk about it after the episode, but I feel like there's a revolution of compassion happening in the world. We're the ones who can make the change, those that are doing spiritual practice and really committing to loving themselves and loving each other, and I know for me, that's the heart of yoga and the heart of my practice.
Jivana Heyman 3:06
So I'm just feeling more committed than ever, more excited about yoga and the teachings than ever. I've actually been spending time reading the Sutras and the Gita again, which I don't even know how many times I've read them both, but I've just been sitting and just kind of paging through and reading sections that I'm forgetting about and just being reminded of the absolute brilliance that we have access to. It's just incredible. Oh and the Upanishads, of course, and the Pradipika, I mean, these are the four texts that I always go back to. In fact, I found a quote just today. I thought maybe I could share this with you. This is from the Gita. I read this before, but it was really resonating with me. I was leading a webinar on how to teach Accessible Yoga and like usual, and there's this beautiful section in the Bhagavad Gita where Krishna is describing how to be of service in the world. It's the chapter, chapter three on Karma Yoga, which is quite profound. And in Sloka 26 he says, "A wise person will not disturb the mind of an unwise person who is still attached to the fruits of their actions, but by continuously performing perfect, selfless actions, a wise person influences others in all they do." And I was really touched by that, because I just feel like, like, I really want to make an impact. I'd love the world to just be more compassionate, to be more supportive of people. I wish we could be kind to each other.
Jivana Heyman 4:49
But you know, rather than trying to control the world, what I get from this message from the Gita is that what I can do is be of service myself. I can just be an example, the best I can. That's all I have control over and and that's enough. That's hard. You can just ask my family, you know, it's hard, it's hard to be of service. You know, which to me, means simply acting out of love and thinking of the benefit of others, and that's where I'm focused right now. So anyway, thank you for listening, and I'd love to know what you think. Let me know what you think about that quote, or any others that you like. I would love to hear your favorite lines from the Gita or the Sutras or whatever text inspires you. You know, share it with me and I'll play it, I'll try to play it on the podcast. All right, so now let's get into our episode. I had this amazing conversation with Tamika Caston-Miller, who's very, very brilliant and inspiring. Hope you'll enjoy it. All right, thank you.
Jivana Heyman 6:05
I want to tell you about our sponsor, beYogi, which is the insurance company I've been using for years. It's designed specifically for yoga instructors and wellness practitioners like us. You're covered for both professional and general liability, identity protection, and coverage for both online and live classes, which I love. Plus they have free webinars to keep you informed and inspired. So head over to beyogi.com/jivana, to get $20 off your beYogi insurance membership protect your practice and your peace of mind today. I'm so excited about our new sponsor, Yogamatters. They've been faithfully supporting yoga teachers, practitioners and studios around the world for over 25 years. Listeners can enjoy an exclusive 15% off all Yogamatters mats and props using the code JIVANA15 at checkout. And I love their products. I've been using their props recently, and they're amazing. I especially love the natural hemp products, so make sure to go check them out.
Jivana Heyman 7:15
Okay, welcome back everyone. Hi. I'm so excited to be here with Tamika. Hi, hi, Tamika.
Tamika Caston-Miller 7:20
Hi! I'm so happy to be here.
Jivana Heyman 7:23
How are you?
Tamika Caston-Miller 7:25
You know, living the dream. [Okay!] Living the dream. [Laughing]
Jivana Heyman 7:29
Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. It's, yeah, it's rough, so I'm glad to hear that.
Tamika Caston-Miller 7:34
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm speaking that. I'm manifesting, you know, manifesting like peace and calm in the middle of it all.
Jivana Heyman 7:41
Right! I mean, that's the practice, right? It's like, you have to, I mean, otherwise, what's the choice, right? Mm, hmm. I really appreciate that about you, and that's why I love talking to you. Thank you so much for being here with us today. So before we go on though, do you want to...I introduced you in the intro, but I don't know if you want to say anything about yourself or say hi.
Tamika Caston-Miller 8:03
Well, I was born...no I'm just joking. I am, I'm Tamika. [laughing] I'm so happy to be here with you, you're one of my favorite people, and I'm now referencing that in bios all over the place, [Oh, wow!] so you know that your name is being dropped all the time as well. I'm a yoga educator, but I really think that what I really am is a permaculturist that is making her way through the lenses of community, soul tending, and reconnection with nature, and therefore reconnection with myself. So I'm doing that through life as a farmer, being creative, like really leaning into my creative side that I think I just kind of cut out for a long time, through my floral business, and hopefully educating others to see a different way to continue sharing these practices that is inclusive and emboldening, because I think that's what we're going to need as we move forward in the 21st century.
Jivana Heyman 8:10
Yeah, thanks. Can you, for people that don't know, can you explain permaculture a little? Because it's interesting, by the way, though, because in our very first episode, we had Shannon Crow talking about gardening and turning back to nature too. So I feel like that's a theme. Because, you know, I was a gardener, well I still am a gardener, but I was basically making a living gardening because yoga just couldn't do it for me for a while. Anyway, but I wonder if you could talk about permaculture a little?
Tamika Caston-Miller 9:47
Yeah, most people think that permaculture is like a gardening technique where it's like, okay, you do the thing, and this is a way to kind of be like organic adjacent. But really what permaculture is, is it's the thought of, what are we doing to create a permanent culture? That is, what can I do as a human to create something that will exist, whether or not I have an opportunity to tend to it, and is it doing something that is for the betterment of the world? And so permaculture can be, yes, it can all be about growing foods and herbs and vegetables in a way that is sustainable, that's regenerative, and that isn't harmful to our planet. But also we can look at that in terms of building communities and creating villages, large and small. And now I think of it in terms of these parasocial relationships, where we can actually create larger villages that are tending to our spirit, and that can be self sustained, whether or not one person is in it, like people can move in and out in this culture, this villaging persists beyond that one person or that one moment.
Jivana Heyman 11:09
I love that, I love permaculture as a kind of concept of living, or, you know, a way of life, instead of just gardening. That feels really important. And I have to say, there is something about, I think that's happened in our disconnection from nature that is at the root of what's happening with capitalism and the way the world is turning it just feels like, yeah, we've lost that connection. We forget that we're part of nature, like we think we're the master of nature, but it's like, no, we are just nature, right?
Tamika Caston-Miller 11:46
That! I mean, we, we are it. And the more that we damage it, we damage ourselves. And the more that we we tend to it, we tend to ourselves. We are not we're not a part of it, and that will to dominate and control everything is just so harmful, and it shows up in so many ways.
Jivana Heyman 12:07
Wow, yeah. So, can you share just maybe a little more about your teaching and where you're doing that these days? Like, yeah, because I know you have a few places, yes.
Tamika Caston-Miller 12:18
So I really leaned in and 2020, it's just like, I want to know all the people, I want to practice with, all the people I tangently know, and I want to teach the people who want to be taught by me. I don't care where they are in the world. So Ashe Yoga Collective is my way of expanding yoga into the world, particularly to folks that have had trouble seeing themselves reflected in the yoga world. So that's I founded Ashe Yoga Collective to do that, workshops, yoga school, and virtual studio. It was so funny too, because I was so reluctant to doing the virtual studio. I was like, I don't really want to do a studio, but then people are like, I kind of want to practice...and I was like, well, if I'm going well, if I'm going to do a school, they need to practice with me. So anyway. And then, and then I became involved with Accessible Yoga. And I was like, I've been looking at it and watching it, and like, just like, I like them. Will they like me? And then join the board, when you asked that, I was like, yes, of course, of course! I love this community, and really it expanded, you know, what I was already seeing as cccessible yoga. Because for me, accessible yoga was looking like, well, what about the people who don't see themselves in the people in front of them? And I'm, of course, looking through a lens of BIPOC, queer, you know, all these other things, you know, full figure, especially people living in larger bodies.
Tamika Caston-Miller 12:28
And then here comes this other, you know, more expansive lens that you have been working on. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's also a thing, but I'm not equipped for that. And so, you know, through being in that community, I really realized we can all be equipped for that. We just have to want it, you know. [Yeah!] So, yeah. So I'm teaching online mostly. And then Tracee Stanley actually was like, what are you doing at a local level? I was like, hmmmm? So she inspired me to get re involved locally. So now I do teach at a couple of studios here, just, you know, once every two weeks at one and then once a week at another, True North Yoga I'm on staff there in Houston, Texas, yes, yes. And then, of course, retreats here out at the Ranch Houston, which is the business I co founded with my wife, which is really doing its best to disrupt the wellness desert of South Houston.
Jivana Heyman 14:56
Wow, that's awesome. I mean, it's been so nice having you involved with Accessible Yoga. You're on our faculty for lots of our programs, and I appreciate that. I love learning from you and sharing your teaching with our community. So I wanted to get to the question that I asked all the guests on in this series, which is, you know as I'm, the purpose of this podcast series is for, kind of me to reflect back on 30 years of teaching, and so I'm kind of asking each person who comes to share a little bit of their journey, like, what was a moment that stood out for you? And the question is, what's a story teaching or practice from your past that continues to inspire you as you move forward on your path of yoga? Do you have something to share with us?
Tamika Caston-Miller 15:39
There's a practice and there's a moment, okay, and the the practice comes out of the moment. The practice, which is a shorter answer for me, is the application of of yoga philosophy through the lens of the koshas. Pancha kosha for me, was a complete game changer, learning that, just learning about being, becoming aware of this, this, this idea or this philosophy that we have, we are these multi layer beings, and also none of it is real. Like all of this is just like smoke screen. And the reason why it became so powerful for me was because I let the smoke screen of the size of my body, the functionality of my body, the color of my body, all of these things, I let the over culture tell me how to feel about myself, and I believed those stories. And so when I finally embodied the lessons and the learnings around the layers of the self and that all of it is veil, I was like, you know, it doesn't really matter what the functionality, the look, the curviness, any of this, like this over identification of what my body can do, who it's for, who it engages with, all these things. You know, I have a lot more agency than I think I do. And for a black queer woman living in a larger body, that was absolutely liberating. It was just mind blowing, because it's completely counter to every single message from the culture that we live in. And that's probably the message that I share the most, or frame through which I frame things in my teacher trainings, because it's just like, why are you obsessed with what your body can do?
Tamika Caston-Miller 15:48
So the idea is seeing yourself as layers, like through the koshas, that changed the way you perceive yourself, is that you're saying? Is that true? Yeah?
Tamika Caston-Miller 17:59
And the yoga practice in general, because in my city, the yoga practice was just so obsessed, yoga teachers and studios were so obsessed with the physicality of the practice. Yeah, I mean, just an incredible obsession, which leads to the moment that I alluded to earlier, when I was trained in about the subtle body and the koshas it was at Kripalu, and so I realized I had some inner knowing that I needed to extract myself out of the Houston teacher community, just the Houston yoga community, in order to expand and grow. I just wasn't being fed. And so when I went to Kripalu and I trained with Jennifer Reese to learn how to guide Yoga Nidra and she just had so much depth and breadth on on the subtle body. Just extracting myself from where I was and learning there made me realize, oh my gosh, there's an entire aspect of yoga that not only is not being taught where I live, but also is being completely disregarded in the way that they teach and train. Because there's no talk about koshas in the city of Houston, at least in the trainings that I've witnessed, the teachers I've taken. And so I'm just like, oh, well, this that's that makes sense. That's what sells, what the body can do. Get better, get ready for summertime. Lose that extra five pounds when you go into teacher training. Weigh yourself now and weigh yourself after, because there will be a difference. And it was just like we're obsessing over something that is actually not even...it's just a veil.
Jivana Heyman 19:53
Just a veil. So the moment was being in that program and just learning that message is that the moment?
Tamika Caston-Miller 19:59
Yes, because it opened up this question of, what else don't I know? What else has become normalized as what yoga is and what else is being gate kept? It just became a question. And so I decided, every year I'm going to train somewhere else and with someone else. Every year I'm just going to be expanded. So since that training, I've taken 100 hours of training every single year with like a different educator, or maybe even the same educator who had more to teach or whatever. And you know, I really feel like that is what's made me the teacher that I am is because I'm constantly just becoming aware of, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And so, yeah, some things might be repetitive or whatever, but usually it's not. Usually I'm learning something new. So it just, I encourage others, and I encourage myself to actively seek what I don't know, because what I don't know helps to chip away at that veil. It helps me with my own transcendence.
Jivana Heyman 21:13
I think that's just so beautiful. Thank you for saying that, that teaching right there for me, like I feel it strongly, and it's hard to verbalize it, which is to say, like you don't know what you don't know. It's almost like you don't, you can't see that, what you're missing, you don't see what's missing. And it's really hard to explain that to people. I think especially maybe, I don't know, as we get older, I know for myself, I kind of get stuck in seeing the world a particular way, seeing myself in a particular way. How do I change that? How am I open? How do I open to new things? It's so hard.
Tamika Caston-Miller 21:52
I mean, that is the question, isn't it? And I find that the answer is in constantly putting us in diverse communities, because the the reality is, a lot of the problem that we see within yoga communities being exclusive or ableist or, you know, or or just small, really small interpretations of what yoga is is because they're insular, you know. And it is connected with this whole question around capitalism. People are like, oh, I need to do this training in order to teach at this studio. And so a lot of, what also needs to happen, is studios need to change their culture of pushing people to constantly train with them, just to work when they may have 1000 hours of training elsewhere. And it's like, no, you don't have to train here to teach. Like, can I see what you know? And can you expand me, you know? So I just think the very essence of what kind of, one of the reasons why I always love talking with you is because you are constantly putting yourself in situations to be expanded. There's no way for you to remain in a bubble and to not know what you don't know, because every time you talk to someone you don't know, you're being expanded.
Jivana Heyman 23:09
That's true. I do love talking to people. I don't take a lot of trainingsm, I'll be honest, like, I really was touched by what you just said about you take 100 hours of training a year. Like, I don't do that. I definitely listen. I read a lot, and I listen to a lot of people. So that's kind of how I get it. But maybe I need to do some more training. I don't know. I just...
Tamika Caston-Miller 23:33
I mean, you probably are reading a lot more than I am, to be honest. Like, TBH! [laughing]
Jivana Heyman 23:40
I don't read constantly, but I definitely have, like, an appetite. I'm definitely always looking for, I do a lot of research, generally, like, I love to read articles. I read books often, like a lot of a lot of yoga books. I just, I enjoy trying to see things differently. Like, I'm a Gemini, like, I have this kind of curiosity about me, I just can't help it, I'm curious for information. And so I love to know that. At the same time, I sometimes feel overwhelmed. I'll just be honest, about the massive, I don't know what you call it, history of yoga, like, just the amount of material that's out there. You know, our friend Anjali Rao just wrote a book that is coming out in a few months, and it's like, basically, on the history of gender in yoga and gender expansiveness in yoga. It's really something. [I'm so excited for this.] Like, I literally had to read the book twice already. And I'm, I don't even understand it. Like, I'm telling you, I've read the book twice. I was like, what? You know, so it's like, I mean, it can be overwhelming. [There's so much!] It can be discouraging.
Tamika Caston-Miller 25:06
It can be and I think, okay, so maybe, maybe me taking training is my lazy path to learning.
Jivana Heyman 25:17
No, it's not lazy!
Tamika Caston-Miller 25:17
No, but consider, it's so much easier to like have a conversation, to see a body and learn from it, or to have an emotional experience with someone, you know, as a former secondary teacher, I can tell you that, like having an emotional connection to a topic makes you remember it easier. So like, I use the example of And you know, it was this thing that, like kids learn all the time, you march and you sing the song. Well, that movement while repeating something help people remember that song and remember all the sons that Abraham had, and and so in education, in like schools, we also would do that, like make a kid laugh or give them a song or make them move and shake, and they always remember that, over than just like taking in information. So for me, like that embodiment becomes a really active way for me to remember things, because I do have a lot of things in my head. Like, I'm, you know, I'm a historian. I've got like, 3000 years of history in my brain that is centered in this part of the world. And so, how do I add these other things, you know, but I found that reading is just, I think you're taking the more academic way.
Jivana Heyman 26:48
No, I just want to say, what you just said is so important about embodiment. Because I want to say there's different ways to learn. And actually, yoga teaches us embodiment. And so, like, actually just doing the practice is a way of learning, right, like, so for people listening, I think I just want to share that message too. Like you don't have to be reading, you don't have to be going to trainings at all. You can just do practice and learn about yoga that way, that will open you up, I think.
Tamika Caston-Miller 27:18
Right. If the guide, if the teacher guiding the class gives the space for you to learn about yourself. Like, if the teacher is so obsessed with you, you know, bringing your thigh to parallel in Warrior Two more so than you like, what is your body saying? What are you learning about yourself? How are you unlearning the stories that you tell yourself, as you're in this movement practice, you know, if the teacher is creating space for you to learn about yourself, absolutely. If not, you're just going to get, you know, work on your abs.
Jivana Heyman 27:51
Right. So it's like, I mean, that's the thing that you started with saying, I think, about how you share right now, how you're sharing the teachings and what you like to teach and stuff. It's like basically finding a way to share yoga that feels really connected, I think, to the tradition to this idea of self awareness, self exploration, self knowledge, spiritual awakening. Those are all part of that journey, as opposed to some yoga that is often taught within contemporary Western culture, that tends to include diet culture, competition, self judgment or external judgment. You know, it's like that what we're trying to move away from. And it's hard because, and I don't, you know, I don't blame the yoga teachers that even are doing that because they probably don't see it themselves. Like, that's how often we're being trained. We live within that culture, it's hard to see that. You know, like, there's that analogy of, like, that's the water you're swimming in, you can't see it, it's just around you. But that's the point of yoga, is to start to get some perspective and to see a little more clearly that there is some internal, there's some biases, like unconscious bias that we all have, and our practice is to learn that. To be honest, my second book, Yoga Revolution, which I don't know if that many people read that book, it's on yoga philosophy. That was the starting point of that book, to actually say, you know, yoga is designed to help us become conscious of our unconscious biases and unconscious ways that we think of ourselves in the world. That's what yoga was for. And so I try to make a case in that book for the ways that the yoga practices are revolutionary. That's why it's called Yoga Revolution. They're revolutionary in the way we perceive ourselves, and in turn, the way we are in the world, act in the world.
Tamika Caston-Miller 29:48
Which is, which is the revolution that we need, right, like the revolution that we need doesn't need to be, you know, storming the capital or aggressively yelling at your neighbor and trying to convince them of something. What we actually need is to embody compassion, love, self awareness. Self awareness so much more than anything else. You know, I oftentimes, talk about the people who are creating so much harm in the world, and how I have compassion for them, which is shocking for me, because I'm a Capricorn, Scorpio rising and really what I want to do is just lash everyone's tires. But I have so much compassion because I'm like, wow, they're so disconnected from humanity that they see that this is the only way of being, and that is so sad, because you can't take any of this wealth with you, or any of status with you, like ultimately, we're here to have this human experience. But I do think that yoga is so revolutionary because it argues that you don't have to change anything about yourself in order to be, in order to exist. What we are doing is removing these layers of unconscious bias piece by piece by piece. It's so gorgeous. I mean, I love how you stated that. And I'd love this work of just like, oh, that's so much easier.
Jivana Heyman 29:49
I mean, I wish that book could get out there more. I mean, it did okay. I have some really dedicated students, I think, or people that are interested in yoga philosophy that have read it. And I, you know, it's now been a few years since it came out, but it's just like, I don't know, I just, it's hard to get that message across, you know. But whatever, I just do the best I can. And I'm not, you know, I'm not worried about it, like I can't take responsibility for the way that work is exactly perceived.
Tamika Caston-Miller 31:59
Well, in a way, if you look at embodiment, which, again, is so important, because, right, because we don't want to just like have an experience, we also want to live an experience, like we have these bodies for a reason, right? So we're we want to experience life with them. We want to experience transcendence with them. And I think it's a lot easier, right, it's like an easier access point. And so, of course, people resist yoga philosophy, because not only is it more challenging to understand, because it's also challenging ways that many of us were raised or dogma that we may hold or adhere to, but it's also less prescriptive. And so because of that, you know, it becomes more challenging work. It requires us to be in self study and self examination all the time, and it also requires us to be more forgiving with others. So, challenging.
Jivana Heyman 33:02
Yeah. Oh, totally. It is so challenging. I actually think that the real work of yoga is that self inquiry, and that's the hardest part. [100%, 100%] So I get why people don't want to do it. I totally do. I resist sometimes, you know what I mean? I get stuck in my feelings, I get stuck in my thinking, and sometimes it takes me a moment to let it go. I'm still there, and I'm still struggling. And I know that's the work that, I mean, that's the work of this practice, of spiritual practice. And I, yeah, I don't, I don't blame anyone for resisting. But I agree with you.
Tamika Caston-Miller 33:40
I mean, again, y'all heard it, Capricorn, Scorpio rising. I will say that. I will say one last, one last pivotal teaching that hooked itself into my life. And it literally, it's everything, and that is, "Self awareness without judgment is the highest form of spiritual practice," Swami Kripalu. That practice, that's how I live. Like, can I be self aware without being in judgment? Can I self study without being in judgment? Can I use that observer part of myself to, you know, see what's really going on, to dismantle story, to vision, to like radically dream? Can I have, can I do that without trying to put a judgment or an outcome around it all? And I really think that that is what is giving me some peace and calm in all the calamities and chaos.
Jivana Heyman 33:41
I love that. I think that's really the theme of Accessible Yoga, actually, of that idea of increasing self awareness without judgment. And I love that. I think the judgment piece is so interesting. It's not only, it's an internal voice, but it's also, you know this, it's like the external voice that we've internalized. So it's, you know what I mean, it's complex. So it's not only culture, it's also our experience, our history and the way we've learned to survive. Sometimes it's because of trauma. So, like, there's so much there. I think that's such a beautiful quote. My gosh, I love that. Wow, thank you for that one.
Tamika Caston-Miller 35:28
I'm feeling better just hearing it out loud again.
Jivana Heyman 35:32
Yeah. I just don't know if you have any last thoughts about that, like, about how do we, how can we? I see you doing it, let me just say that. So I see you sharing yoga in that way in the world, but I just wonder if you have any thoughts for maybe yoga teachers that are listening, or any of us like, how do we do that? How can we increase self awareness without judgment? How can we teach in that way or share that message?
Tamika Caston-Miller 35:53
Yeah, I think we teach, move and listen through a lens of curiosity and through maybe a goal, if we have to have a goal, which I think we goal really well in our society. A goal of of expansion, that's it, just being expanded. Find your expanders. You know, listen, move, teach through a lens of curiosity.
Jivana Heyman 36:16
Find your expanders, like your community? Is that what you mean?
Tamika Caston-Miller 36:28
It's not always your community. It might be the antithesis of your community. They might be the people who challenge you, the challengers. They might be the people who vision for you, who dream for you, who can see a bigger picture than you, and they might be, actually I don't think your current community is your expansive community. I think you need to find the people who challenge you to dream bigger, and that could look like people who you cannot stand or people who like, our politics, our current politicians, they're, they're expanders. For me. I'm like, wow, you really believe that. And they challenged me to create and cultivate the opposite. So find the people, lean in to the people who challenge you, because if we get out of the way of feeling despair and feeling like we're getting beat up, we will actually see what is necessary to meet this in future moments and begin creating that.
Jivana Heyman 37:32
Let me just say that, if I understand that, so you're saying that, what I'm hearing you say, I keep going back to the yoga teachings, I think that you're actually sharing right now, is a teaching on suffering. The teaching on how to learn from the challenging times in our life instead of becoming stuck in them, kind of like how to grow through that. Is that true? Is that what you're saying?
Tamika Caston-Miller 37:55
I am, and I'm also saying how to grow through and away from, oftentimes, the challengers, the actual people who are creating challenge in our lives, whether that's family members, people you don't know, people out in social media land, like actually not running away from that, listening and understanding why we're having the responses that we're having, and what we are doing to cultivate the opposite of that, I think, is essential. Otherwise we just become more and more insular, and we don't expand. And if we don't expand, we cannot actually create a permanent culture.
Jivana Heyman 38:39
So permanent culture, like permaculture,
Tamika Caston-Miller 38:43
Yes, always comes back! [laughing]
Jivana Heyman 38:46
But you're saying like, when you said expanding to like, learn from the people who, in a way, that cause our suffering, or who we think are causing our suffering, right? The people that we're we're reacting to, we don't need to go be with those people, but we need to learn from those lessons, so you can turn away from people and still learn the lesson, or maybe you learn the lesson, and that makes you realize I don't need to be with that person anymore. Yes, almost like an abusive relationship, I hate to say, is that kind of true?
Tamika Caston-Miller 39:17
There are a lot of abusive relationships out there right now and that we are in and we don't even realize it. Then I don't mean like in your personal, yeah, but almost like that. Like, how will I not create this in my life? Or not even how will I not, but what will I create as a result of having learned that this doesn't work for me anymore. And I don't want people to think that what I'm saying is, you need to stay in it to learn from it. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that when you realize that this is something that is creating harm, it's like, okay, let me get out of this situation and let me also see what I'm going to cultivate that looks like the opposite of that. I think that we will learn so much about what our work actually needs to look like by identifying what isn't working either in our cities or in our communities or whatever, rather than just feeling despair for them, from them. This gives us a place to put our anger, our righteous rage. This gives us a place to put our ire and all of our hope again, and that hope then becomes the soil for all of the movements that we're doing, that are going to grow into, you know, these luscious forests.
Jivana Heyman 40:38
I literally wrote about that in the book I'm working on now about gardening. Because, again, that's my part of my story, and my practice is gardening and about compost. You know that that's what compost is, right? And not only the thing about compost, you take all the the dead stuff and you put it in there. So you take those parts of your life that you don't need anymore, that you're done with, they're over. You compost them and, actually the way that compost works is through heat, actually, that there's a heat process that occurs, which is like tapas. So tapas means to burn, and in yoga practice, tapas is a discipline, right? Discipline of practice of, you know, burning, feeling that suffering, that's what is making it turn into beautiful soil.
Tamika Caston-Miller 40:38
Yes. Heat and time. Heat and time. You know, like that's the thing is, it's got to break down and all that, but you just can't take some hot, you know, 140 degree compost and go using, you're going to kill everything you put it in. So you've got to also give it some time. And I think that what we want is we want for all of our things, all of the things, like I literally just wrote about this on my Substack, about when we start identifying old relationships, relationships that we're walking away from as the compost for the beauty that will come from our lives, we will walk away from those relationships a lot easier.
Jivana Heyman 42:03
Well, you know, you keep mentioning the positive, trying to cultivate the opposite. That was a phrase you used, which is, you know, basically you're quoting the Sutras. And maybe, I'm sure you know that, but I don't know if people listening know that you're quoting pradipaksha bhavana, which is Book Two, Sutra 33, by the way, and then but what I love is the next sutra actually says, not only once you have that awareness of cultivating the opposite, you know that when suffering comes, you cultivate the opposite, but the next sutra says that reflecting on it is the practice. So actually, you don't even have to go through it anymore. You can reflect on it and recognize that the outcome of negativity or pain is suffering. Reflecting thus is also pratipaksha bhavana, that means a lot to me. There is a way out, which is like, oh, I've learned this before. It's like, yes, I've learned this lesson. Because don't we say that all the time, that we're going to repeat it, until we learn the lesson? It's like, okay, now I've actually learned this lesson, you know, and so that I don't need to go down there, I don't need to go into that, down that hole of being upset or angry and argue with this person, because I know it's going to cause pain. I can walk away.
Tamika Caston-Miller 43:21
That part. That's that self reflection piece, that self that self inquiry piece that, as you said, is like, just essential to this practice. Yeah, that part. I'm just, I'm over the whole, my friend Jessica always says, make new mistakes. And I just love that. I'm like, no, I'm not going to be mistake free. But my goodness, like, how often do I want to keep doing the same thing? Like, I'm just going take a pause and say, okay, this is not working, and this is compost. Like, how often do I have to put the same compost in?
Jivana Heyman 43:54
Yeah, okay, I want to share a little bit. I know we need to end. We've gone, I've probably gone away for time. But if I can, I want to share something happened to me yesterday, which is that I'm reflecting on today that I'm sitting with, and that is that I'm leading a program right now, and I have, like, a huge group of students, like, it's really giant, and, I mean, they're so amazing, and the program is new, and I'm figuring it out as I go along. And there, the response has been really positive. But I had one, actually, I had two, I had one critical comment, and then had one student yesterday tell me they want to drop out, and it just let it get to me. You know, it really got to me that, like one person saying they don't want to, that they're not enjoying it, that they don't want to be there, that they've already learned this, and it's repetitive, and it just kind of broke my heart. And then I really did that, I've been doing this practice where I think, wow, I'm going down that hole like I have, I had self esteem issues my whole life, and so I feel like, is this going to be, am I going to repeat that because one person, when I'm getting a lot of positive feedback? I'm not listening to that, I'm only listening to this one critical voice. Am I gonna let that get to me? I mean, I can listen and learn from it, but also it's like, you know what? I'm not gonna keep telling myself that story and use it as, I almost use it as, like, a way of self criticizing myself, like, repeating it. Do you know what I mean?
Tamika Caston-Miller 45:21
Oh my gosh, do I know what you mean? I mean, literally, every time someone would be like, I don't want to take her class, I'd be like, is it because of my hips? You know, I'm just like, whoa. Like they didn't even say that, you know, like the self criticism is real and I think it's, I think, two things. One, we can use, we can reframe self criticism to you know, what's really happening right now? What are the stories I'm telling myself? It's just another self inquiry point. But the other thing, my fellow grower, and that I think we can also think about is, if you try to plant tulips in July, they're not going to grow. You know, for those who don't know, tulips require really cold weather, and you could plant them in January, and they still might not grow if you live in Panama. So sometimes it's just, it's not the right season or the right time for either us as the teacher or that person as a student. And I do not love the whole when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I don't like that because it puts a thing on the student, where you're just not ready for this amazing information I have for you. Sometimes it's just not right time, right place, or it's just not right teacher, right student. And I think that we have to be the right teacher for everyone, and I don't think that as students, every teacher is right for us. And comma, I would tell that student, okay, the information coming out of my mouth might feel like it's repetitive for you, but have you considered that the other 30 people in this room are also teachers, and you've never, ever had that dynamic before? That's the thing is, people want everything from the one person instead of the concept of the village. The onus isn't on you as the teacher to teach all the things. It is on you to create the container for learning to happen, and that's going to happen from you and everyone else in the room.
Jivana Heyman 47:28
Yes, thank you. And I love your gardening analogy around tulips and by the way, that's also what I was writing about in my book, which is around accessibility, I was saying that, as a gardener, I recognize that it's not the plant's fault if it's not doing well, like it's my fault for not creating a suitable environment and that...
Tamika Caston-Miller 47:46
And it's fault at all. It could also just be the soil sucked.
Jivana Heyman 47:50
That's true, but I'm just saying so as a teacher, part of my job is to recognize that what is appropriate for this person and try to offer them that support and that with a plant, if it's not doing well, I can try to move it to the other side of the garden. Maybe it's too much sun or too little, right? Too much water, too little, too much, whatever, too little. And that's something that each of us needs to recognize. That's part of our growth. Anyway, I can talk to you forever, so maybe we should...! [laughing]
Tamika Caston-Miller 48:15
I know right, especially once we start on the growing, gardening metaphors like, wait what, lettuce?
Jivana Heyman 48:23
Yes! Well, we need more gardening advice from you, so maybe that, maybe that's something you can do for all of us.
Tamika Caston-Miller 48:30
Oh my gosh, no. That will be an us thing, but I would love to have that conversation soon.
Jivana Heyman 48:36
All right. Well, thank you so much for being here and sharing.
Tamika Caston-Miller 48:39
Thank you. I really appreciate you. Thank you so much for what you're putting out in the world, and also, thank you for entrusting me with being a part of your platform. I just, I love you so much. I can't say enough about you. I love your books. I am one of your fans. So although I haven't read Yoga Revolution, and now I need to, since yoga philosophy is my thing, so I'm going to read it, and I'll and I'll report out.
Jivana Heyman 49:03
Okay, please let me know what you think. I'd love to know. [I will.] All right, thanks.
Tamika Caston-Miller 49:08
Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 49:22
I want to take a moment to thank Offering Tree for sponsoring this podcast. If you're like me, you're passionate about yoga and wellness, but running the business side of things that can feel overwhelming. Offering Tree gets it. They built an all in one platform specifically for yoga and wellness professionals with tools like scheduling, website building, marketing, and even payment processing. They make managing your business simple and stress free. If you're thinking about simplifying your business, they've extended a special offer from my listeners, use the link in the show notes and get 50% off your first three months, or 10% off an annual subscription.
Jivana Heyman 50:13
Hi everyone. So we're back for our Q&A section with me and Deanna. Hey, Deanna.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:19
Hey, Jivana. How's it going?
Jivana Heyman 50:22
Good, actually, how are you?
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:24
I'm good. You're heading to New York. We're gonna have a team meeting, in person, with most of us.
Jivana Heyman 50:30
Yes and I'm doing a training too, which, by the time this comes out, will have happened in the past, but I am coming all the way to New York to see you and the rest of the team, and also lead an Accessible Yoga Training in person, which is very exciting. I'm excited about that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 50:47
But you'll be back on the East Coast in just a couple months after that for Boston, right?
Jivana Heyman 50:52
That's true. I will be in Boston in June. So if people want to train with me in person on the East Coast, please join me there. And also, I'll be teaching in person here in Santa Barbara in the beginning of August, so either coast of the US, you can join me this year. But let's talk about that amazing episode we just listened to with Tamika. I mean, that was a lot, like I could have talked to her for another hour, I think. Well, I know I could, because she's so fun, and she's so brilliant, and she has so much to say. I don't even know where to start. What do you think?
Deanna Michalopoulos 51:25
I was so looking forward to listening to this episode, because Tamika is a joy, and as you said, absolutely brilliant. So many kernels have really stayed with me from that conversation, but I guess I'll pull out, I love that she talked about how she actively seeks what she doesn't know. And this is a quote of hers, "I actively seek what I don't know, which helps chip away at that veil." And she's referring to the veils that really obscure who we really are and even, just like culturally, where we are now, where everyone needs to be an expert and everyone needs to have a take, and there's certain opinion on things. I think it's really courageous and also it just speaks to, like, the depth of her practice, that she seeks what she doesn't know.
Jivana Heyman 52:09
Yeah, that's amazing. I don't think many of us really do that. I think it takes a lot of humility. It seems like yoga teachers were kind of trained, you know, if we're the teacher, we're like, the expert and, like, maybe even on social media, like, we had to be the expert on something. I love that she shared that, yeah, she was talking about the koshas, right? And, like, the realization that were all these layers that was really, really powerful. Yeah, thanks for bringing that one up again. What else? Was there something else that you loved?
Deanna Michalopoulos 52:39
Um, yeah, um, I think she talked about, like, especially prescient in this time, like the revolution that we need right now is really a revolution of embodiment, self awareness, and compassion. And of course, she hilariously talks about how that's hard. It's hard for many of us right now, but truly, the practice of having compassion for ourselves and each other is maybe what will spark a little bit of change. [Oh my gosh.] It's a hard practice, sometimes.
Jivana Heyman 53:05
I know, I totally agree, like that, I totally am on board for that revolution. I mean, that is exactly what needs to happen, a compassion revolution, or you could say a Yoga Revolution, which is the title of my book, but because, yeah, like, I wrote awhole book about it. It's like, I really agree. And the yoga can do it. Like yoga, to me, that's what it's for. You know, it changes our relationship with ourself, and then, because of that, the way that we interact with other people. And, yeah, she has such a great well, she has a very yogic perspective, the way she talks about herself very frankly and, like, it's not that she's criticizing herself, but she's, like, very honest and not embarrassed about the reality of who she is and where she's at and that's such a yogic approach, this kind of just truth, you know, just like honesty about who we are. So it's like a balance of compassion and also recognizing where we need to grow. I think it's beautiful.
Jivana Heyman 53:38
Yeah and embracing every aspect of ourselves.
Jivana Heyman 54:18
Yeah, and I do agree, that's how we'll change the world. I think it starts with us. There's a beautiful quote about that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 54:26
We were looking at that Instagram reel earlier this week. It was about how Darwin's survival of the fittest was a little bit misconstrued, and when it comes to, perhaps individuals, maybe, you know, survival of the fittest applies. But when you're talking about groups of people, which is what we are, like, you know, we're just made out of like, we're a tapestry of communities. And when it comes to communities, it's actually, Darwin said, like the most compassionate communities prevail, which is so powerful.
Jivana Heyman 54:59
I love that. That, you know, today I was also leading that webinar that people could probably still get, actually, by the time this comes out, webinars for the Accessible Yoga Training Online that starts actually March 6th. You know, the message I was trying to share with yoga teachers. I was talking about how to like, plan and and sequence Accessible Yoga classes, but I think the message is so much bigger. You know, it's really something more about creating these compassionate containers that will hold community together in a really thoughtful way. And so I kind of was asking everyone there to really reflect on, are you doing your practice and is it a way that you're teaching a reflection of the yoga teachings? Which I feel is what we need to do as yoga teachers, like we have a responsibility, because we are we have some hand in this as teachers, right, in the way that the communities that we're a part of are formed and the way they run. Do you know what I mean?
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:03
It's a big responsibility. And I guess with every class, you have a chance to, like, build culture.
Jivana Heyman 56:09
Exactly. So I just been thinking about that, about the responsibility and the role of yoga teachers in this time. And it feels kind of like, oh, yoga is not that important. You know what I mean? Like, this side thing. Like, I think most of us are, like, focused on, well, you know, how can I survive right now? But like you said, I think the revolution that will happen is through connection and compassion. And I think yoga is a great place to find that.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:37
Yeah, thank you for bringing that forward, Tamika.
Jivana Heyman 56:39
Yay! Thank you, Tamika! Thanks for inspiring me.
Deanna Michalopoulos 56:43
Jivana. We have a couple of voicemails. Let's bring some other voices into the room. And this is from our international contingent. This first voicemail is from Ber McCall, from Ireland.
Ber McCall 56:57
Thank you, Jivana, for all your teachings, for all your courses that you share, for all the nuggets of wisdom that you share, and for me like yourself, many years in the practice and in the teaching, and the story of the yoga master and the overflowing teacup reminds me often to be the student, always practicing, as well as the teacher always learning. Thank you for everything. All the best on your celebrations. 30 years, well done!
Jivana Heyman 57:28
That's so nice. Thank you so much. Is it Ber? Ber, what a great name. Anyway, thank you for that. I really appreciate it. That's so kind. Wow, so sweet.
Deanna Michalopoulos 57:42
Now we have another voicemail from Jo Stewart. I'm gonna go ahead and play it.
Jo Stewart 57:48
Hi, so my name is Joe Stewart, but you also might know me from Garden of Yoga, which is my studio and the teaching of yoga that I want to share that's really stayed with me and really made a lot of these philosophies applicable to my life comes from you, Jivana, and it's the idea that yoga is about making friends with ourselves, and that can start with really getting to know ourselves on a deep level. Sometimes it's about facing hard truths, sometimes it's about forgiveness, but it's also about joy and connection to ourselves and also to our communities. So yoga can be about showing up, whether that's showing up on our mats or wherever we practice for ourselves, showing up for the people that we love, but also showing up in all of the other ways to try and make a better world for ourselves and everyone that we share it with, because that's what friends are for, right? They make life better, and yoga can be a way to start with that deep, true inner friendship within us.
Jivana Heyman 58:52
That's awesome. Thanks, Jo, wow, I love that. Did I say that? I think I do talk about it a bit. I talk about, like, when I talk about meditation, I say that, you know, it's a practice of making friends with our own mind. So I guess that's what Jo's really getting at. And, yeah, what a great teaching, I mean and a great idea, it kind of goes back to what we're talking about earlier. You know, compassion begins at home. So you've got to be friends with yourself before you can be friends with other people. You have to be kind to yourself before you can be kind to others. I think, I mean, I think that's how it works. But I just want to mention that Jo is incredible. Jo is writing a book on making aerial yoga accessible, and I'm writing the forward actually, and I just finished reading it. Now, it's an incredible book. Really. I've actually never done aerial yoga, but I think I need to now, just because her book is so inspiring.
Deanna Michalopoulos 59:52
That's amazing. I would try aerial yoga.
Jivana Heyman 59:54
I know! Well, that way, I would try it with Jo. In fact, she said, I'm supposed to go to Australia in September to teach, and she's there, and she said, when I come she'll give me some accessible aerial yoga classes or something, an experience. I'm a little scared, but it sounds really nice. The way she describes it is very cozy, you know, this cocoon that you're in, basically. Anyway, so I don't know when that book comes out. It's probably not for another year, but congratulations, Jo, and thanks for sharing that message. Both of those are so sweet. I love this part. Do I get people just say these things and...?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:00:35
Well, we actually have someone coming to you for advice and this is from yoga therapist Rebecca James. And Rebecca asks, "I just listened to your fascinating podcast with Scottee. I am a yoga and mindfulness teacher, 20 years of leading classes and workshops, and I really struggle with the financial aspect in making it fair. I've tried giving classes away for free, but I can't do that as I need to earn something, and also I felt the people receiving this didn't always engage as fully. I also tried a sliding scale, and got pushback from a wealthy student saying she was being penalized for being well off. (And then she has the monkey emoji with the hands over the eyes) So I'd love to hear more about how you do it and how you get people to reflect on their financial situation. Thank you."
Jivana Heyman 1:01:24
Wow, that's a great question. Thanks, Rebecca, yeah, and I'm glad you enjoyed the episode with Scottee. He's great. That was such a fun conversation. In fact, if you're hearing this and you haven't listened to that episode, I really recommend you go listen, because he brought up some financial stuff there. I mean, you know, I have to say that running teacher training programs for now, I don't even know, like 25 of my 30 years of teaching, I've been running teacher trainings, and this has always been, maybe the biggest challenge, is finding fair financial, well, fair and accessible financial structures that work for the most people, so that most people can access this material and what I'm sharing, and also so I can get paid and pay my staff. Like I have an amazing staff that I want to pay. And I have, like, financial needs, you know, like I have to support myself and my family, so I think it's just, it's not a simple thing. I feel like it's a journey that's evolved over the years for me, and I found that tiered pricing has been the best. Well, what we offer in other programs is a combination of tiered pricing and also partial scholarships. So we've kind of systematized that.
Jivana Heyman 1:02:46
We also offer payment plans, in fact, for the like for the Accessible Yoga Training Online, which is coming up really soon, we actually extended the payment plan options because it seemed like people were struggling financially right now. And so we we extended the six month payment plan, which usually, with that option, would have ended earlier. So I guess we have to be flexible with these things too, and then just constantly be iterating them and figure out what works right now. So I don't think there's one answer, but I would explore all those options. And I think even if one person doesn't like it, or is confused or like that one student who felt that she was being penalized, I don't think that means you have to throw this whole thing away. Maybe that person needs some more education. Or, you know, maybe it's okay if they're not happy. It's not about pleasing people. I think it's about making this content as accessible as possible, while also supporting yourself. So it's finding that balance. What do you think Deanna?
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:03:46
And I think engaging the dialog, although I know conversation around financials can be uncomfortable, right? Like we don't talk about money in our culture very much, or yoga spaces, but I think opening the door to having conversations with students who may want to engage in your practices or trainings and saying, like, well, what can you offer right now? Like empowering students, just like, look at their situations and say, you know, I'd be comfortable with this payment plan and you know, and considering if that works for you. And that way it's like a relationship building project, you're both kind of in the conversation, and it's not so one sided. It might feel like more comfortable, that way both parties might feel more comfortable.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:29
I mean, we do that a lot. You know, with really, almost with most of the scholarship offers we give, there's usually a communication that goes back and forth, and it takes a lot of time, a lot of staff time. But I think it's important, because it is about that relationship, finding what works. Like someone might say, well, no, that offer is too high for me. Can I pay this? And then there's, well, maybe, okay, how about if I paid that over six months, or whatever. You know, so it's like constantly going back and forth to try to find what works for someone. I think it's challenging, you know, for so many reasons, part of it is like really feeling that you're worthy, I think, as a teacher or a yoga therapist, to feel that you have something valuable to share, and at the same time realizing that it can be an obstacle, that finances could be an obstacle to people. So how do you how do you find that balance? It's really challenging.
Jivana Heyman 1:04:29
It's too bad that yoga is not just sponsored. I think there's some places where you can have yoga, I mean, it can be like, prescribed by a doctor, and it's covered by insurance in some places, and maybe even in the US for certain conditions. But, I think at this point it's pretty much people have to pay out of pocket, and so unfortunately it can be an added thing when people are struggling to make ends meet. Which is so sad, because I think that, you know I just did a lot of research on yoga for aging, for that course that we offered on Yoga for Older Adults. And it's incredible how much benefit there is in yoga practice on just a healing level. Like, if we're talking just physically, I would say, like, just from the research I did, I can't imagine there's any other thing that could have such positive effects across the board to so many different conditions that we're facing, especially as older adults. It's helpful for our brain health, it's helpful for our heart health, it's helpful for our muscles and bones. There's so many ways that it's helpful. It's like, I don't want to be like, pushing, like a yoga pusher, but we need it, we need yoga! Is that? I don't know.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:06:43
No, it's true. I think that some teachers, you know, like, I think a lot of teachers would love to give away their practice if they could, right? But like, it is reality that we all live in a capital society and we might have to charge for our offerings. But I think some teachers will offer a certain number of free practices, whether that's every month or every season, and that, like, allows people to access a practice for free. And then, you know, there are other offerings that maybe come before and after that.
Jivana Heyman 1:07:12
Yeah, right. I love that. So like, you know, that's kind of what we do. We offer these free webinars all the time. And I mean, I almost feel like I'm doing one a month at least. But anyway, the free offerings are a great way for people to access some of the teaching and to see if they want more, first of all, or also, just to leave it at that, if that's what they want, and if that's all they can afford, that's fine, too. And so maybe that's something that Rebecca could look into is like, is there some one thing she could offer for free? Like, maybe there could be a group meditation that becomes a free offering, that could actually welcome more people to her practice, and, like, bring people in, and it's just a one time thing, or maybe once a season, like you said, it's like almost like an open house kind of thing, and then after that, people can come and pay for private sessions, whatever it is. But, yeah, like, maybe there's a way to offer something for free. I love that. I also, you know, that's why I'm doing this podcast. This is a free offering, and these interviews take a lot of time and energy for me and you and the rest of our team, and it's so important, you know, just to put it out there, just to share the teachings, even on social media, you know, as you know, since you handle all this for me, you and I work together a lot on creating content for social media that is mostly just giving away the teachings that I'm sharing in trainings. It's kind of funny.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:08:46
Could you string together a teacher training by watching 50 hours of your reels, Jivana?
Jivana Heyman 1:08:52
Yes, that would take a lot of Instagram time, but it's possible. Actually, I was saying this morning that if you don't want to take my training, you could actually probably read my last book, the Teacher's Guide to Accessible Yoga. It has, like, pretty much all of it in there, but it's like, you know, what kind of learner are you? But that's part of why I try and do all these different things, write books, do a podcast, lead trainings, be on social media. I don't know what else I do, but, you know, just try to, like, get it out there every medium that's available, just to reach people. Some are not only accessible, you know, because people like one way of learning versus another, but also financially. You know, some of these platforms are more accessible than others, and that's part of why I'm still on Facebook, you know, even though it's kind of horrible, what's happening over there. I feel like it's a free platform and people can access us there without having to pay anything, which is nice. Yeah.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:09:47
Yeah, sometimes in the social media realm, when it comes, you know, like, it's easy to say like social media is bad, but in truth, it's really, it's a tool, you know, the day to day act of using it, and consuming. Like it could actually be, it is a net positive, like a lot of people learn through social media. I referenced a reel a few minutes ago.
Jivana Heyman 1:10:08
I know, I do that all the time. I'll be saying to my husband, I mean, like, oh, I read this thing and like, wait, no, I didn't read it, I watched a reel that said, dot, dot, dot. And then he's like, is that an actual news source? Like, do you really, how do you know that's accurate? Like, I guess I don't know, unless you know, somehow I feel like I know this person or I trust them for some reason. But it is a decent way to learn, that's what we have. I mean, that's what we have right now, right? Anyway, thanks for that great question, Rebecca, good luck, let me know what happens. All right, anything else, Deanna? I don't know. I feel like we talked about a lot today.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:10:49
We did. We covered a lot. I think we're good.
Jivana Heyman 1:10:52
All right, thanks again for being here, Deanna, and to all of you listening, I really appreciate it, and hope you'll take care. Okay, bye.
Deanna Michalopoulos 1:11:00
Bye, everyone.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
