Jivana Heyman 0:05
Hello and welcome. This is the yoga revolution podcast. My name is Jivana Heyman, my pronouns are he and him. This podcast is an exploration of how we can live yoga right now, and how we can apply the yoga teachings in our lives. We'll discuss the intersection of yoga and social justice, as well as how to build a practice that supports our activism. All my guests are contributors to my new book, yoga revolution, building a practice of courage and compassion. Thanks so much for joining me. Let's get started.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to our very first episode with another person. I'm here today with my friend Kelly Palmer, and I'm so excited about it. So I wanted to tell you a bit about Kelly. Kelly is a queer, black creative and community advocate based in Charlotte, North Carolina. Kelly uses the practices and philosophy of yoga to guide her work in creating equitable and sustainable access to wellness for bipoc. Along with teaching movement, meditation and contemplative practices, Kelly leads retreats, host workshops and contributes to multiple teacher training programs. Kelly also works as a race equity educator, working to create collaborative learning and self study spaces where inquiry based learning brings new perspectives, insights and action. Kelly is a writer and collage artist, yay, focusing that work on black liberation, wholeness and healing. Kelly serves as a founding member of the sanctuary in the city of Charlotte based nonprofit that focuses on equitable healing spaces for bipoc all over the world. Kelly also serves as a trainer for the Accessible Yoga training school. And you can learn more about her at Kelly Nicole Palmer calm. Hey, Kelly.
Kelley Palmer 2:08
Hey, Jivana It's great to be with you today.
Jivana Heyman 2:11
Thanks so much for joining me,
Kelley Palmer 2:13
I always love when we get a chance to sit down and talk.
Jivana Heyman 2:17
Me too. That's why you're my first guest. And you also wrote the foreword to my book, which is what this whole Podcast Series is based on. So this this series is based on yoga revolution. And I was so excited that you agreed to write the foreword, and it's really, really sweet and beautiful. So actually, this episode will come out before the book is even out. So I think we could talk.
Kelley Palmer 2:40
Okay, wonderful. I'm super honored that you asked me I was like, a little bit nervous. And you asked me like, oh, wow, Jivana wants you to write the foreword. And I loved reading the book, I can't wait for other people to get a chance to read it. I'm always super grateful and inspired for the ways that you do the work you do. And the ways that you I can just say for me, like, you get into a room and then you like, bring everybody in with you. And that is rare, often even within wellness spaces of like, people who really care about being in collaboration and aren't trying to hoard resources. And so I appreciate you.
Jivana Heyman 3:23
Thank you. That's so sweet. Well, I appreciate you too, which is why I got I asked you to write the foreword and but I should say that we worked together for many years. And you know, you worked with me and Accessible Yoga. And I just knew that's how I knew you were the person I wanted wanted to write that forward. Like I just saw, you know, read so much of your writing, you did a lot of writing for Accessible Yoga, and I just felt like, people need to hear your voice and you you have a way of expressing yourself. That's very clear. And and not just clear the word. I don't want to say brave, but when you're not, you're not shy. You're not afraid of hurting people's feelings. You just say it like it is. But I also feel like you're not. You're not holding anger either. It's like somehow you have this way about you that I find just so compelling. I'm just speaking clearly. And
Kelley Palmer 4:25
I appreciate that even talks too much. You know, I have a plenty of unnecessary talking marks. I think every single report that I had had a had like the lowest score on unnecessary talking, but who's to say what was necessary or unnecessary in those spaces. I also though, I appreciate what you said about anger. It's not something I talk about a lot. But in my early 20s I was in like weekly therapy for anger management. And I think about that a lot when we're doing this like equity and accessibility work. Because the world makes me angry, we talk about it personally all the time. Jivana like, the humans and their human being, it just drives me literally mad. And I and I honor that anger, right is righteous anger, like humans should be able to exist and thrive outside of the systems that we're all in. And I see how these systems are literally killing people, like physically killing people and energetically like stealing people's hope, and their joy and their peace. And I'm grateful to the yoga practice, because it I don't know, it gave me the tools to transmute that anger into into action, instead of letting that anger destroy me, which was something I struggled with. I hate to admit it, like almost 20 years ago, because I'm 40. But yeah, around the ages of like, 19, or 20, I actually was in like a road rage situation. And I didn't get arrested or anything, but it just made me It woke me up to the fact that I needed to deal with my anger in a way that wasn't going to cause harm. And I think about that all the time. But particularly when you just said, it doesn't feel like I'm angry. I do hold the anger, you know, I hold this space of I can be angry and joyful and hopeful and hopeless, and sad and happy. Like, I'm a complex being with all of those feelings moving in and out.
Jivana Heyman 6:35
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. I had a similar experience with anger. Because, you know, during the AIDS epidemic, I was so angry, and I was involved with, you know, direct action through act up and demonstrating and screaming and yelling for years and years. And, yeah, I mean, yoga helped me. It's not it, I still have a lot of anger, too. But I definitely feel like yoga helped me us find a way to change it into action, which is what you just said so. So exactly, like turning anger into service or doing something action. And so it doesn't just sit in us and fester, but actually becomes motivation. Because really, anger is fine and the wrong with it. It's just I think, I think it can be it can like be a poison for us if we don't if we just hold it, you know, just seething. Yeah.
Kelley Palmer 7:30
Yeah. I mean, I think about something that my grandpa used to say to me, we still talk on the phone every day since I was a small kid. And my freshman year of college, I was holding a lot of anger about different things. And it was actually the last year of my grandfather's life. I didn't know what at the time, but he would say to me, like, it's a quote that I'm sure other people have heard, like, the people you're mad at, they either don't know, or they don't care. And so what are you going to do with it. And I actually am like, in the process of writing a book myself, and pretty much talking about, like, realizing that my grandfather was really my first yoga teacher, even though he might not have had that language, just around the power that I could have, if I were in my body, and able to observe the feelings that I was having to make a decision about what I would do with those feelings. And, you know, even in talking about anger, I, I appreciate yoga, not just for teaching me how to like, transmute anger into action, but also how to sit with it and observe it and not let it devour me. Yeah,
Jivana Heyman 8:44
yeah. I mean, I, I try to address that a bit in the book talking about, you know, how, like, we just said that yoga doesn't take away doesn't it take away these issues for us? Like that's, I mean, I mean, that's bypassing, like, we can use yoga that way to, like, deny our feelings and avoid them and try to get to the positive feelings all the time. But, but but yoga can make us stronger, so that we can be with our feelings. And I think that's a very different thing, you know, to be able to like, like you said, sit with it. That's an amazing skill. I mean, it doesn't always work. But sometimes yoga gives me that skill to be with my feelings, instead of pushing them away, or changing focus, changing my focus to something just to distract me, which is what my mind likes to do. To get distracted. I know in your in the foreword to the book you wrote about how you got into yoga. I mean, you mentioned your grandfather, but then you give it you tell a story. I don't know if you can share that about.
Kelley Palmer 9:50
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, the very first time I went to yoga, I was in like a level two vinyasa class, but I didn't know I didn't If any of that meant, I just knew that I was in a bigger body. And the trainer I was working with told me that I could do yoga and burn calories. And so I went to yoga and I left the class, the teacher, I left right before Shavasana, I don't think the teacher really knew what to do with the body that I was in. And for a long time, I carried anger towards the teacher, after I became a yoga teacher, because I couldn't imagine allowing someone to come in and not take care of them. And, like, offer support for them in the space. I've since released that anger because I've recognized, you know, in supporting teacher trainings and working with you and Accessible Yoga, that while there are people who blatantly don't care about making their spaces accessible, most people don't know what they don't know. And they're doing the best that they can with the tools they've been given. And so it's like, I can have compassion for that teacher. But I also feel grateful because after that I did develop a long student teacher relationship with the person I ultimately took teacher training from, and there were a black woman in a bigger body. And they made the practice and the philosophy accessible to me. And, yeah, over and over, I've been able to find teachers I consider you a teacher Amber's teacher, Keisha battles, J. miles, my abrar Dr. Gail Parker, Octavia Rahim, like all of these people, to Camille teachers in my life who have repeatedly offered space for me to grow my understanding of this practice. And
Jivana Heyman 11:44
I say lots of those people are going to be guests on this podcast.
Kelley Palmer 11:47
I hope so. Teachers, I hope,
Jivana Heyman 11:52
like Amber, and J. Maas, and Octavia. I think those are the ones that you mentioned.
Kelley Palmer 11:59
No, but I think that, you know, I started like, regularly practicing in private. So just myself and my teacher, and at the time I owned a hair salon. So we were making our staff take yoga, and so, but I'm the only one it was my business partner who actually wanted to take the classes and I kind of was like, okay, like, I'll go along with it, like, I can burn calories, fantastic. But in the end, I was the one who stayed and was taking the privates on my own. And, you know, I, I've been a teacher or I've finished a ytt program over seven years ago. And I can kind of track that because I was pregnant with my oldest child. When I was in teacher training, the very first weekend, I was like, eight and a half months pregnant. But I don't know this path of teaching yoga has opened up a space for me to be involved in activism and direct action. And also just like the movement for black wellness, in a way that I couldn't have pictured when I first decided to lean in to yoga. And I think what makes me often feel hopeful around like, doing race equity work, supporting Accessible Yoga trainings, and like other like, you know, inquiry based action motivated spaces. I think what gives me hope is that this practice does hold the space for people to really look at themselves. And at least from my perspective, our like, greater change doesn't come without individual change. And if it's going to be found anywhere, I feel like that change can be found here. In this practice, that's really what keeps me coming back to the work. Because I don't always want to stay involved in like wellness spaces and education in those spaces. It can be exhausting in some ways.
Jivana Heyman 13:55
Can you say more about how that works? Like, what is that? For you? Yeah,
Kelley Palmer 14:02
yeah, I think that, um, you know, I feel fortunate to have a lot of teachers around me just in the race and equity space, not all of them and wellness. And we all collectively sometimes talk about, like, what would be better use of our energy? What would bring more joy to our lives, because it can sometimes feel like, you know, I could teach 500 people that are yoga teachers, race and equity, and there's still 10s of 1000s of others who are perpetuating harm maliciously and unknowingly. And, like, I'll never be able to teach everybody, even if all the race and equity and you know, inclusivity educators within yoga and wellness banded together, we won't be able to reach or shift everyone and that can feel like well, maybe I should just collage and paint and make Include skip on the beach. And I do do those things all the time. On the right. I love skipping, skipping is more adults should have a skipping practice, if it is accessible in your body, you should have a skipping practice because it just, you can't be in a bad mood and skip, but that's a whole nother podcast. But I it's an instant mood booster to skip or frolic about in a natural space. But also, like, you know, last year, we partnered and I taught the first online sessions of a race and equity workshop that I that I lead with your school. And you know, there were over 200 people signed up for that offering. And I didn't realize it then. But I needed that space. Because we were also in the middle of you know, pandemic, a global pandemic that was killing people all over the world is killing people all over the world. And we were seeing the largest like mass demonstration in a long time for the safety of black folks in the US under police rule. And I'm a black person. So what I teach about is not just like ideation, this is about my actual existence and survival. And that space was really restorative because the folks who decided to take it, they were serious, and they really leaned in. And we had a lot of really rich conversations. And I'm still in community, with a lot of those people around the work that they're doing in their personal lives, but also in the ways that they're offering wellness, so that they are valuing the lives of black folks and indigenous folks and other people of color, and not centering whiteness as a standard and model for how to do business or how to run a salon, I'm in a studio or how to offer classes. And that gives me a lot of hope. So you know, but you know, I can go into another space Two weeks later and have to argue with people that white supremacy is real. So there's this balance, right?
Jivana Heyman 17:10
What do you what do you say? Like, I don't know if you could summarize, in your thinking that relationship between yoga and social justice? How would you describe that?
Kelley Palmer 17:22
Well, you know, I think that social justice is something on its own right. It's this decision to be an advocate to be an activist, to be a disrupter. And I think that anyone's capable of that. And I think that we can't really even imagine a different way. If we haven't set with ourselves and released the story dominant culture created for us about who we are, about how we have to live, who we have to value, how we have to work. And so you know, yoga, has so many tools available for self study, for reflection, for withdrawing from the senses, to get really clear about what it is you're saying to yourself what it is, you're saying about others what you're thinking and feeling about the natural world around you. And I often, you know, more regularly see people say that social justice and yoga are not the same thing. And I don't really have I don't know, I don't really I don't, I don't have a space to say like, well, you're wrong to say that. But I do wonder if those folks are considering the real purpose, the real reason why they engage this practice, and whether they want to admit it or not, they were seeking something. And the thing that they were seeking will always be out of reach as long as others are suffering. And so these two things are very much interconnected. Even that for the space of people who really want to do something. If you are not clear about the ways that you uphold harm, the ways that you uphold oppression, even in your helping and your charity, and your so called solidarity, you will bring these patterns of white supremacy of oppression into your help, and eventually and inevitably cause more harm. And so, you know, social justice to me is about embodying the inherent value of every part of this existence. The people, the land, the water, the air, the energy, we're all sharing, but you can't do that if you haven't pulled about part the stories that allowed you to undervalue those things in the first place. Yeah, you. You can't do those two things separately, and it makes me sad that people want to Be proprietary about what you'll get is and what you'll get isn't in terms of trying to make it as if you don't have an obligation to the other people and the other things that are a part of your existence, you do. And to me the practice highlights that over and over and over again in so many different ways. But what I also sit with when I see people say like, social justice has no place in your Lord, these two things are not connected, or these two things are not the same. What comes up for me is like, what is the power of privilege that you're afraid you're going to have to investigate and ultimately release? To be who it is you say, You are?
Jivana Heyman 20:42
Yeah, it seems like people confuse maybe, maybe they're confused about what social justice means, you know, and then they think of it as politics. And like, you know, or something. Yeah, like, politics is related to social justice. But it's not exactly the same thing. And I think you just said it so beautifully. It's it's more about the connection with everything and everyone. Like that's, that's, you know, that kind of equity in the world is what what I think of as social justice, like everyone having equal access and equal rights. Yeah.
Kelley Palmer 21:16
I mean, you know, sometimes people, when people say to me, like, I don't want everything to be so political, I'm like, well, you don't actually have that option. Because we're all living in a very highly politicized environment. Being in right relationship with everything around you is not political. It's very personal. It's very metaphysical. It's very spiritual. And there are places in spaces where they've tried to politicize that. But the work is to dismantle that thinking that there is no separation between you a white gay man and me a black queer woman. Yeah, we are experiencing similar things and different things. We're being impacted differently in our lived experience. And if you aren't doing everything to make sure I thrive, and I'm not doing everything to make sure you thrive, we won't thrive. And you know, I talk about it a lot and raising equity. But folks who sit closer to dominant culture have a bigger responsibility to care take the thriving of others. And it's because even though you're being impacted, even though you also are being asked to segment and this member, you're being in this system, you still have access to things other people don't have. And that's the part that infuriates me davida, like, your house, with internet, with electricity, with water, with food, with everything you need, trying to tell other people that they cannot use the tools of this practice to shift change, because they literally don't have a place to live food to eat, access to medical care, access to community care, they're afraid to exist, you're telling these people they can't use this practice to make it at least bearable. That's more privilege and power, as far as I'm concerned. And I'm only interested in what can we release? What can we do to make it equitable? What are the stories that we're each holding that still make this system so viable?
Jivana Heyman 23:27
Yeah,
Kelley Palmer 23:28
and, and my answer is always like, you need to sit in some self study, you need to practice being with discomfort, you need to practice releasing the illusion that you have about your value. Because as long as other people are treated as disposable, you also sit in mind to be treated that way one day, because you're all because you've gotten fat, because you're navigating illness, because you lost your job, because you don't look a certain way because your skin is not the right color. Because your religion is not the right. You know, I mean, like we're all up to be on the outside at some point. So why don't we all just remove the boundary of inside and outside?
Jivana Heyman 24:13
Yeah, well, that's that's really, I mean, you said it so beautifully. Telling, you're amazing, but like, I feel like that was really the point of my book like that, that idea of the inner inner revolution and outer revolution really looking to explore like, what is the relationship between our inner spiritual work and outward lived experience and the way we act in the world, like there is a relationship there and I feel like there is this kind of traditional or even I would say classical approach to yoga teachings where you become a monk and you leave the world you go, you don't have relationships. You go live in an ashram or by yourself somewhere and you just focus on spiritual teachings. But it's funny because I lived at ashrams and worked in them and they are as intense if not more intense than family life, like you can't you can't run away from the world, it's really not possible. But the fact is, most yoga students are practitioners haven't like, we're not even trying to be monks, we're householders. And we live in the world. And we're participating in this, you know, in this community, and so to act like this spiritual practice is somehow divorced from that is to keep it is to minimize it, actually, and to not allow it to be as powerful and profound as it really is, to transform the way we see the world. And how we act.
Kelley Palmer 25:42
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I had hoped that the last 18 months would be a bigger wake up call, for particularly this wellness yoga community, simply because the amount of loss and grief was indiscriminate right? Not to say that people with under resourced or under estimated identities didn't bear the brunt of it, because we did. But it's why I know just as many white folks or people who were financially doing well, who really struggled for various reasons, through this 18 months, and I feel fortunate through you and other folks that I got to be in a lot of virtual spaces to really talk about what it could look like for us to be intentional and focused in dismantling these systems. And while I know that there are lots of people who took that work seriously, and are carrying it forward for themselves, I can't help but feel disheartened, by the way that I see folks, not only willing, but rushing back to what was considered normal and right before with all that they saw experienced in there. And, you know, I, you know, I'm a, I'm a yoga teacher. And also, I made the decision that I'm not teaching in person in 2021. And it's been disappointing to navigate people being disappointed in me for making that choice. When I when I know that while in the United States, we are in a mad dash to business as usual, the rest of the world is still grappling with an unexplained and unnecessary death tolls, and people are still dying here.
Jivana Heyman 27:45
Yes.
Kelley Palmer 27:46
And so I just, you know, it's not without, you know, we were talking just before this, it isn't easy for a person who works for themselves, to turn down paying work at the tail end of a pandemic that canceled most of their work. And I'm not willing to go back to being paid $14 an hour to teach yoga, I'm not willing to go back to teaching in spaces that are overcharging people for metaphysical practice. And I'm personally not at the point where I wish to monetize spiritual practices, while so many people are still experiencing loss and grief and devastation, for lack of a better word. As if it's not happening, like as if it's just over, like it's not over. It's, it's not over people, it's gonna take some people 10 or 15 years to financially recover from the last 18 months. And, you know, I, I've been a little snarky online around, like, I was waiting for the revolution, and everybody wants to go back to brunch. And, but I mean, they're, like, we can have brunch and we can revolutionize things at the same time. But it doesn't feel it doesn't feel good to see people just ready to forget everything. We talked about everything we were trying to cultivate in the last 18 months. And you know, it reminds me to practice non attachment to have right use of my energy or Macharia, you know, of like, I can't be arguing with people on the internet and also trying to raise money for mutual aid to make sure that black and indigenous people of color can pay their bills. So let me use my energy in the right way. You know what I'm saying? I can't. I can't continue to teach in spaces that are hostile when there are plenty of spaces where people are excited about and longing for work that asks them to question how they're existing within systems of oppression. And so, you know, prioritizing that and then also just prioritizing my own joy and peace. Aaron, you know, reading good books like yours. I just was digging around in your first book, Accessible Yoga like two days ago, trying to offer some tools to my mom who's navigating some health challenges. And you know, I all that to say, like, I'm holding that the change that is necessary is on its way. And I won't see it in my lifetime. And that's being shown to me all the time. And I need to be okay with that. Yeah,
Jivana Heyman 30:33
that's disappointing. But can you think like, if? Can you think of like one thing that people can do to engage with yoga in this way in their lives? Is it through self study? Is that what you're suggesting? I mean, is that is that what your new book is about? I'm just curious. I know, you've already written a book, you've written two bucks.
Kelley Palmer 30:55
Yes. And I just rerelease the, in July just re released, revised edition, where I merged the it was a book of mantras and readings. And then I had a book of like self study practices and questions. And I merge them together to just offer some grounding, but offer also like give my space give myself space to be more expansive around the ideas I initially shared, and be more deliberate in the language of like, self study, practice, not only grounds you and fortifies you. But I've learned in my own life in the past for really seven years, that a self study, practice liberates me from the story that dominant culture is telling me about myself in the world around me. And so yeah, I don't really care if you can do a handstand, if you can do all the Chaturanga Did you speak Sanskrit so perfectly, that doesn't matter to me, I just was saying this to my children, actually, kindness will always be more important than knowledge. And, you know, I was simplifying for them, because their ages seven and five, but it still feels true to me and I, if your practice is not rooted in dismantling systems of oppression, for me, you don't have a practice. If you're, if your practice is not rooted in figuring out how you're contributing, and then working on unlearning, and repatterning, your actions around money, your actions around work and productivity, the ways that you make people prove that they deserve to have their basic needs met, like, those are things to be looking at continually. Because dominant culture is continually shoving oppressive story down your throat. And so can you sit with that work? Can you breathe through that work? And maybe you can do it while you do Chaturanga? Is Right? And also, can you do it? And where you're spending your money? Can you do it? And where you're choosing to make a home? Can you do it in who you're centering as an expert. And so yeah, I'm gonna, I'm always gonna rally for people to do their self study around Systems and how they are participating in them.
Jivana Heyman 33:16
I mean, it seems like the Chaturanga is a good place to start, but only if you keep going. And it seems like so many people just stop there, you know, we just, we get so caught up in the physical. And we lose, we lose track of the other part, this self analysis, which is really the essence of yoga actually, really learning to be reflective. And see, the way that your mind works, is really what the teachings are all about. Well, do you have any final thoughts, I should probably wrap it up. And I just wanted to give you a chance to share any other sage advice around this.
Kelley Palmer 33:53
I mean, I want to just remind people that dominant culture is feeding us a story right about what is what makes us valuable. And that feeds the story about what makes other people and other things valuable. And I just want to invite people to step back from that story, to really pull it apart. And to really think about like, are you existing in a way that allows you to fully thrive? And are you existing in a way that allows everyone else and everything else around you to thrive? And I'm already going to tell you the answer is No, you're not. Because if we all were, we would be having a very different experience in this lifetime. And I think the work of unlearning is hard, but I want to ask people to not give up to actually trust, their ability to withstand the discomfort of releasing these stories in these ways of being. It's hard work. I know because I'm doing it also. And I can't even fully articulate the level of equanimity that comes from doing the work, even when it's hard even when you lose things that are important to you, even when you have to question your entire existence. It's on the other side of it is clarity. And action that becomes easy. Yeah, that's
Jivana Heyman 35:30
beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. I think you're doing a scary it's kind of scary. But you said it. You said in such a beautiful way it feels less scary.
Kelley Palmer 35:39
I really want to give credit to Octavia Rahim, she released the book last year gather. And there's a passage in there. She has, you know, several like passages in there. And I'm sure you'll have her on to talk. But there's a passage in there called I Am held. And at the end of it, it's talking about like, what happens when you release all of this. All this stuff that's not even yours. And how scary that weightlessness is. But like, the Knowing that past selves, future selves, they're holding your hand as a compass and a guide. It's exactly what Octavia says, and I don't know those words have really thank you, Octavia. Because those words have really grounded me and fortified me through the last 18 months in a way that I hadn't anticipated.
Unknown Speaker 36:31
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 36:33
No, that's, that's awesome. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Kelly. And people can find you. Kelly, Nicole Palmer Kelly with an E. Like k e. l. e. y. Kelly, Nicole Palmer calm and you have your book out manifest. And yeah, what else? How else can people find?
Kelley Palmer 36:53
Those are the ways Oh, I use Instagram sometimes. Which is funny because I used to be the communications manager. I don't really like social media. That's not because of that. Yeah, you know, and I'm learning place around it. But yeah, I'm on Instagram. I am Kelly, Nicole, ke Ll er, Nicole. And I feel le those are great ways to connect. And you know, I have more workshops coming with Accessible Yoga, helping out with the training that y'all have online. But really, I'm just taking it easy and making art and homeschool in and being loved on and loving on people in real time and the ways that I can safely while we're still in a pandemic. So yeah.
Jivana Heyman 37:39
No, thank you. Thanks for thanks for joining me and for everything you do. It's always so great talking to you. I'm sure I'll talk to you soon. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you all for listening. All right, take care. Peace. Thanks so much for listening and joining the conversation. Yoga is truly a revolutionary practice. Thanks for being here. If you haven't already, I would love for you to read my book, the yoga revolution, building a practice of courage and compassion. It's available wherever books are sold. Also, you can check out my website Jivana Heyman calm. There's some pre classes on there and a meditation and you can find out more about my upcoming trainings and other programs. Hope to see you next time. Thanks. Bye
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