Jivana Heyman
Hello and welcome. This is the yoga revolution podcast. My name is Jivana Heyman, my pronouns are he and him. This podcast is an exploration of how we can live yoga right now, and how we can apply the yoga teachings in our lives. We'll discuss the intersection of yoga and social justice, as well as how to build a practice that supports our activism. All my guests are contributors to my new book, yoga revolution, building a practice of courage and compassion. Thanks so much for joining me. Let's get started.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm very excited today to have my friend Sarit Rogers here as a guest. Hi, Sarit Hi, Jivana. Hi, good to see you and hear you. I wanted to introduce you actually, I'm going to read part of your bio because it's good I need to so many amazing things. Sarit Z. Rogers is a Somatic Experiencing practitioner, accomplished photographer, writer, group facilitator, and trauma informed and Accessible Yoga teacher. I added that in Sarit, facilitate groups and provides Somatic Experiencing sessions to adolescents and adults and treatment. Sweet integrates mindfulness, Invitational language, movement, and self awareness, encouraging students to develop accessible tools for self care, self regulation, and healthy boundaries. Her goal is to bring yoga and S.E. Somatic Experiencing to underserved communities where healing is needed the most, and is often out of reach. So thank you for being here.
Sarit Z. Rogers
Thank you for asking me.
Jivana Heyman
You're welcome. Well, I should say, before we get into this, that not only did you contribute, like all the other guests I've had on this podcast, but you also took the photographs of me that are in the last chapter that actually the last section of the book, that a whole series, and you also took all the pictures in my first book, Accessible Yoga. And you're an amazing photographer. So thank you for that. Yeah, you're working on that first, maybe? Sure.
Sarit Z. Rogers
We can talk about whatever you want.
Jivana Heyman
Well, I just want to say that you're not just a contributor to the book in this section that you wrote. But also in that photography, you're done. Actually, why don't we go back to what you wrote, because I think that'll help set the stage. For each of these interviews, I've had the contributor read their contribution, I wonder if you would do that you could read this section that you shared with us with that awesome photograph. Yeah,
Sarit Z. Rogers
absolutely. Thank you. All right. So my yoga practice grounds me and nourishes me deeply allowing for the expansion of my own capacity to hold space for and be a grounded presence, and an empathetic witness to the populations I work with. Social Justice and service Siva are what led me to teach. It has never been about the fancy space or the notoriety. Teaching and practicing yoga is bearing witness, humanizing the unseen in our society, dismantling systems of oppression, and sharing compassion. I remember the felt sense of making eye contact with an incarcerated man at the county jail when I asked him his name, the name he wanted to be called, not his number, or last name. He was in a solitary cage in the recreation room, there were tears in his eyes, a gentleness that emerged in his face when I said, I see you. My practice allowed me to bear witness to honor the feelings of my own powerlessness and also feel gratitude from this man as a result of being seen. My practice calls for justice and the impetus to ensure that difference is honored and not diminished by otherness.
Jivana Heyman
Well, that's an amazing, amazing sharing and contribution. So I wanted to also place it in the book, because for me, this was such a powerful expression while of you and also a yoga practice. And I put it in probably my favorite section of the book, which is the section of the chapter called rainbow mind. And it was the section that I that's what I actually wanted to title the book originally, and then the publisher asked me to change it. But I was trying to describe something I think you really got to get there, which is a kind of a state of mind that really does embrace others. sees others. And in. And the reason I wanted to share that is because I feel like, at least within the yoga tradition, there's been kind of this idea that enlightenment and that the goal of our practice is this stillness, this total peace and quiet. And almost this in this isolation from the world, like where we, you know, go sit in the cave and meditate forever, and then we become enlightened. And I just feel like that's so not my experience or what my goal is, and it's not what I see the practice giving us and I feel like you're you really embody what I'm talking about, and you share it there so beautifully. Which is actually how can the practice, create compassion within us and connection? Rather than what you described as otherness? Because I'm afraid that kind of enlightenment feels very,
Sarit Z. Rogers
I don't know, it feels very othering It feels? Well, I i've always sort of how do I say this? That idea that we have to separate ourselves from people in order to become enlightened, feels counterintuitive. I think of it through that the lens also of social engagement, and connection. And we're hardwired to be engaged with each other. And we know this just scientifically and all of that. And I think that there's a beauty in yoga, of asking us to connect and also to separate and look within. And there's a way to do both of those without isolating and separating ourselves as though we're above.
Jivana Heyman
Exactly,
Sarit Z. Rogers
you know, because oftentimes, I've noticed that there's people who will go on these long silence, immersive retreats that are beneficial in many ways, right? But then they come back, and their tea cup is full, so to speak, like nothing can happen or they're knocked off balance. And there's something to be said for being able to move through the world holding these practices as as like part of our tool pouch.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, and I know that you have training in mindfulness as well. And maybe I think Buddhism addresses this more I feel like there's a tradition within Buddhism specifically like teachers like Thich Nhat Hanh, who I quote just before your you actually
Sarit Z. Rogers
I mean, crate company, that's amazing.
Jivana Heyman
You are in great company, because, you know, he created Engaged Buddhism and I feel like what we don't what I don't see in yoga is engaged yoga, and I guess that's what I feel you doing and the reason I asked you to share and be a contributor to the book and I think you got it directly in that in what you said, I mean, the way you talk about other otherness, I just wonder Yeah, I don't know if you can say more about that. Like how do you use your yoga yoga part of your practice to help you with that? Like is there a part is there something that you're doing in your practice? Or does that come through your your Buddhist training or your your se training like is there
Sarit Z. Rogers
I don't I've got it so interesting, I think that it comes they're integrated I think a lot of it so Somatic Experiencing asks it really our goal I think with our nervous systems right is to be in this state of relaxed alertness and yoga gives this gives us this platform to to investigate and discern and pay attention to with that gentle awareness. So I think that there's they they both make sense to me in this in a similar way. And I think you know, as because I work with disability and some days moving is not as accessible to me as other days Some days I appear and function in a very able bodied way and other days I wake up and I'm like wow, okay, so right now it's like this. So my practice my yoga practice allows me to be in that place of Oh, okay, so my yoga today is my breathing or my yoga today is my presence or my yoga today is my witnessing of myself and my my place in the world on that given day, and I don't know I think it places me on a on a. I've always looked at yoga as an opportunity to be horizontally, not horizontal is in line down, but not a vertical hierarchy. But as that we're sort of teaching each other. And maybe that sort of disagrees with the sort of the guto lineage in a way. But there's also this kind of like we are moving, it's a dance. I don't know if I'm expressing that very well.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah. So in a way, you've integrated the yoga teachings that sounds like and you're not. It's like, you're not stuck in a traditional way of interpreting them, but you're using them in your life. And in your teaching. This sounds like I'm integrating them with your other training.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, even in SE when we talk about like, that's my primary modality really is yoga. But it's not just Asana, I think my I use everything else I'm using, you know, the other limbs, probably more so in many ways.
Jivana Heyman
Without nasal touch, right. And your quote, you said that your practice grounds your nurses, you allowing you for that, allowing for the expansion of your own capacity to hold space for and be a grounded presence, and an empathetic witness to the people you serve. And so seems like something has given you tremendous capacity, it seems to me to be with people that are struggling or suffering. Yeah. Yeah, we're about that. I mean, is it your, is it your, like, what are you doing? What are you doing that's allowing that
Sarit Z. Rogers
doing a lot of deep internal healing work? I think probably most of it is my Somatic Experiencing personal work that I'm doing. And there's something that I often say that like, as we sort of touch into the discomfort, right, we do it in yoga, notice that like, come up to the edge and notice it, but don't go Don't push past it Don't push, right. And that so that we're not pushing, but we're going, oh, wow, that's, that's a little uncomfortable. And can I soften and turn toward instead of pushing away and running away, every time we sort of resist, we create more bracing, and more actually limit that internal capacity to, to hold or to do anything. And I think se has taught me, it's given me this opportunity to sort of titrate sort of little bits at a time, little bites, some of the really big stuff in my nervous system. So that has more space to be there. So it's not that things don't knock me over, I get knocked over. And it's really interesting, some things that you'd expect me to get knocked over by I'm like, doesn't matter. And then there's something like really innocuous and I'm like, right, I'm like something, you know. And it's, it's funny. That's how trauma works. That's how our nervous systems are sort of unpredictable in that way. But I think my own pretty complex and profound trauma history has actually been a gift in the sense that I had this capacity to survive all this abuse. And when I realized that that really sucked, and I didn't want to, I didn't want to have the capacity for abuse. In fact, I wanted the capacity for the good,
Jivana Heyman
huh?
Sarit Z. Rogers
I'm having that amount of capacity for the for the abuse showed me that there was an equal capacity available to me, I needed to actually turn toward it. And
Jivana Heyman
how did you do that? How did you see that mean, through your own practice? You realize that consciously? I mean, is that you consciously chose? Or is it just you?
Sarit Z. Rogers
I think it's an it's part of it's just me part of it's the felt sense of not thinking about it. I think that's why I love yoga so much is that we're really feeling into the practice. We're not, it's not really a cognitive practice. It's a feeling practice. And so am I in my yoga when I'm thinking about it as much Not really.
Jivana Heyman
So I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it seems like you found a way to transmute your own personal suffering, to be of service to others. And I mentioned that that way, because also in this section that that's what I talk about in this section of the book, too, which is that I there's a book A new book by Sharon Salzberg called Real Change. And I have a quote from her in this section she says, equanimity balances our caring so that compassionate action can be sustained and won't drown under the weight. And we won't drown under the weight of our own sorrow. So it's like. Yeah, so I feel like you're, you're saying the same thing, which is like you took so you had your personal trauma, right? Like whatever your abuse, you called it. And somehow that gave you a capacity. But you found some equanimity with it, because I would just say, I think for most of us, when we've had when we've been abused, or have trauma, that usually that can stop us. It can limit us. And you're saying the opposite that it actually gave you a capacity.
Unknown Speaker
It did. But I think a lot of that was that I became willing to look at the the shadow that I don't believe in it. And it wasn't yoga was something that opened the doorway for me to be able to do that. But it was really working with trauma healing practices, like somatic experiencing. And some of the even the touch work that help with the developmental stuff helps me actually release a lot of that survival energy that was holding, that shows up in our lives as reactivity or bracing shows up as chronic pain, right shows up as all of these things, and working very diligently for for many years now, to start to untangle, right, it's sort of like, you know, when you have a necklace that's tangled up, and it's really frustrating, it's like, I can't get it apart. And it's like it, there's a charge that shows up. If we take that necklace, and just really gently right, it's start to roll it in the palm of our hand, it starts to untangle. And in many ways, that's been the gentle, intentional process of this healing, which has brought me closer to my yoga practice. And allowed me to walk into spaces that are oftentimes jarring the story I shared about. We were teaching to a group of men who had been taken out of general population for bad behavior for violent behavior. And so these were particularly violent inmates, they could only come out four at a time. And they would come out handcuffed, individually and individually put into their own cage. If you ever are in Los Angeles, and you go to the old zoo, in Griffith Park, those cages that the animals were in are kind of the same size, or similar in size to the cages these men were in. And the first time I saw it, and I was I was actually with the shore. And the first time we saw it, we both we sort of gasped, like you're putting people in there it was it was a it was shocking. And I ended up teaching in that particular unit multiple times. Not all the teachers wanted to go in there, it was really disturbing to be in there. And I realized that these cages created a whole different element of separation. Because when we teach in the prisons, we're, you know, 610 feet apart from each other, and there's, but they're human. And I've actually, you know, you walk up and you talk to people, and there's, there's some social engagement that occurs. And here there's this like, cage with a chair and a mat and a block. And that's it. And I'm in a very echoey smelly rec room. And I thought, well, what happens in this is my photography brain that kicks in. When you go up to a pattern of fence, a gate, and you get closer to it. It goes out of focus, and what's in focus is what's inside. And I was like, Okay, this is about this is about depth of field. And how do I integrate depth of field so that I can bear witness and humanize these men who are being profoundly dehumanized in this experience. And so I walked up to each one and you couldn't like put your you couldn't be assert that close but I said, Hi, I'm sorry. What's your name? And they'd go, I'm, you know, whatever the last name was. I'm Rogers. I'll use my last So I don't stigmatize anybody. And, and I go, I hear that I'm curious. So what what do you want to be called? What's your What's your name? Oh, john. Hi, john, it's good to see you. I see you. And there would be this moment of like, absolute connection of eye contact. And the other thing, and I didn't write this in there was that I couldn't bring you don't we can't bring music, we can't bring anything in there. And I also sing, and I carry my instrument with me wherever I go. So I started singing at the end of class, and I'd sing like a nigun Jewish nigoon. I'd sing
Unknown Speaker
all sorts of chants, Ma chants. And I started singing, and they would just kind of be like, Wow, thank you Miss, and they'd leave. And then a couple weeks later, I came in, I sang again, and this one guy says Miss is that you, he sits up, he pops up. And I said, Yeah, he goes, Oh, wow, I thought it was like a radio last time you were in here. And he's like, and when I would get stressed out, I would just remember that song. And I just even telling that I have chills. And that guy, who was actually really quite a difficult inmate for them, ended up being reintegrated and got out of that unit. Because of the yoga. Well, and because of like, having like, it reminds me of like an se, where we talk about pulling in a resource and the fact that he could tap into the felt sense of hearing that song. Again, that someone was singing to him. And there there's these moments of like, cues of safety that we talked about Nessie and polyvagal theory where it's like, yeah, gentle voice presence, witnessing. The nervous system goes, Oh, yeah, okay, I'm okay. In this moment. Even in this shitty cage.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah. Wow, can you see that? Thank you for saying that as what a beautiful story. Can you can you say more about se like what that is? I'm not sure I really understand. You know, what I haven't really done Somatic Experiencing? I don't think
Sarit Z. Rogers
you would know it's, it's weird enough for you would be like what is this? Now, it is a bottom up approach to healing trauma and stress related sort of symptomology and it's very much a psychophysiological process. It was founded by Dr. Peter Levine. He wrote Waking the tiger in an unspoken voice. His work was really focused on animal behavior and why animals in the wild who are under threat on a regular basis, they're hunted and are running whatever it is, why they don't have anxiety, PTSD, those sorts of things and why we humans do and in that research, really realizing that our brains are we share the reptilian and the mammalian brain with these wild animals which means that we have some of those features and then we grow this prefrontal cortex that's quite lovely and gives us executive thinking and it gives us sequential memory and it's also kind of pesky is that if you are saying You and I are walking and you fall and you get up and you're like I'm fine, I'm fine and we keep going you would be overriding what the body actually needed to do in order to release all of the stress hormones stress chemicals that naturally arise without any of your doing because you fell right noradrenaline adrenaline gum up there's all this like or like whatever and he Dr. Peter Levine will say like all that survival energy is all dressed up with nowhere to go and in many ways you know initially Somatic Experiencing got became very well known actually for shock trauma, it's it's particularly good for that. Um, but we've over over the years and through research and through really having deeper and deeper understandings of the the physiology that we're carrying with us, and how trauma sort of plants itself in the nervous system, right and the theory being, it's in the nervous system and not in the event. I'm figuring out that like, top down, top down and talking about isn't actually releasing anything, and that there needs to be this bridge from bottom up to top down, we need to teach that prefrontal cortex, it's highly intelligent, to learn to pay attention in a different way. So there's elements that are similar to mindfulness, but it's not mindfulness. But mindfulness is helpful. But, but we're asking people to like, it's not necessarily comfortable. Either and, and sometimes it's like, you know, watching paint dry or grass grow, or it's like, what are we doing right now? And then, and then all of a sudden, the system will go, Oh, that's, and then you'll say, like, That's weird. What's weird? I everything just shifted. Because our system is significantly slower than our brain. So we got to let it catch up. Yeah,
Jivana Heyman
I think you've, you've used this on me, in a way when we go to photograph photography together, you know, you're just stop. It's like, let's just up.
Sarit Z. Rogers
I use it in my photography all the time. And I, I do trauma informed photography,
Jivana Heyman
right? And
Sarit Z. Rogers
what happens is, and you know, this, you've been in front of the lens many times, and the camera comes out. And it's like, and a startle happens, like, the eyes get wide, the breathing stall the sudden, or we're breathing up here, if we're breathing at all, it's like, oh, my God, what is that? they're inherently objectifying. And so if I'm going to work to not objectify people, and not other eyes, people, I have to shift the narrative and I have to shift the relationship with the camera. Which is why my my catchphrase is that my camera is not a weapon of mass perfection.
Jivana Heyman
Right? I love that. Actually, you remind me of something else in this chapter, and someone who I think you would love. A famous he's actually a famous Jewish theologian, Martin Buber. I don't know if you know, his work. I know who he is. Yeah, so I quote him here too, because he had this whole thing about moving from I-It to I-You, right? Like that, we generally see other people as objects. And, you know, we're the real person, it's like, you know, we're the main character in the story, and everyone else is just like, you know, supporting, supporting cast. I mean, that's my analogy. But you know, he talks about how shifting to see others as equal beings. Is, is that right? That whole thing you're describing? Yeah, collaboration and getting away or getting away from the otherness because I feel like that's the theme here in our conversation. That compassion, even the word compassion, I think still feels a little separate. Even though it's the subtitle of my book, I use that word. It's like connection actually seeing the other as you like, like what he said that I-You rather than I-It?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Which is very, I you know, it's funny, uh, but you know, as you said, he's a Jewish theologian. And it's, there's a, there's a wonderful teaching in Judaism. And I'm sure I'll botch it, but I'll get the meaning of it. Correct, I promise. But there's 70, I believe, 72 names of God, faces of God. But we don't know what 72 there are. So if you treat everybody you meet, like they may be one of those faces. Right? And there we are in bearing witness and not other rising because if you know, or like Rahm das would say, you know, treat everyone like God in drag. Right, exactly. Right. And it's this idea that we are all sacred beings in some way, in a in a way and here for and to teach us something. And you know, Sharon Salzberg talking about equanimity? It's like yeah, how do we be in that space where we're firmly rooted like a tree that's really deeply rooted in the earth but can move with the flexibility of the wind and the elements and not you know, completely fall apart. She's, a she's an amazing teacher. I've sat with her a couple of times, and really lucky I am. Yeah, years ago I got I was very lucky and had the opportunity to sit amongst 10 people and her. And it was it was a magical experience.
Jivana Heyman
I just want to say that the teaching though, is not just, I mean it's in Judaism, I think you're saying it's in Buddhism, it's also in yoga. And I mean, that's what I'm trying to share here is like, in the yoga teaching, we find that I have another quote I want to read one more quote, it's from the Bhagavad Gita. This is from Gandhi's translation of the Gita. He says, The Man equipped with yoga looks on all with an impartial eye, seeing Atman and all beings and all beings in Atman. He who sees me everywhere, and everything in me, never vanishes from me, am I from him? can I keep going? The Yogi who anchored in unity, worships me abiding in all beings, lives and moves in me. No matter how he lives and moves, he who by likening himself with others senses pleasure and pain equally for all, as for himself, is deemed to be the highest Yogi. Hmm. Yeah. So other translations of that same, I have another translation, actually, that same section of the Gita, which is basically saying that feeling other people's pain, or pleasure as your own is the highest form of yoga.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And we, we and I will say that we have to be careful that we're not making it ours. Right. Right. That were that were joining but not merging. And that we're not, we're not, I think, because I love that teaching. And I see that teaching being misappropriated in that people are bypassing, and they're like, I don't want to deal with that difficulty, because everyone is blah, blah, blah. And it's like, we can't do that either. Yeah. So it's like, how do we hold that? And that's where the equanimity I think comes in, where it's like, we can name that, like, this is kind of kind of unpleasant. Yeah, and I don't agree with it. You know, I think that's part of being an activist, though is is that there is that disagreeable part of me that goes, Yeah, no, that's unjust. And it would be unskillful and unethical for, for me, from the yogi standpoint, even, to not pay attention.
Jivana Heyman
Right. But also, like you said, to not make it about you, because then you actually then you can also get burnt out and do nothing. And actually inaction comes from just that feeling, maybe the nervous system just feeling overwhelmed. And I'm in this is too painful, I can't face it, I'm just gonna distract myself and do something else. Right? Turning away, you know, because it's too painful, I think. So like, so. I just, I love this conversation, I just want to say I mean, I think we should probably wrap it up. But I just want to say like, this has been so helpful to me, it's like we have to, we can take our own personal suffering, I feel like you're saying this, and through our practice, through our work on ourselves, create a capacity to hold other people's suffering. But if we don't, even though we can see ourselves in them, if you don't do that inner work, we're not going to be very effective.
Sarit Z. Rogers
We're not and we have to be careful that we're not using our students or these populations to fix our woundedness right? Right. often they're there's so much to the wounded healer, and we have to make sure that we're not using our students, um, as our self, if you will, that that the part of it is like I know this works because I've seen it work and it's worked for me and and also that there's no silver bullet so this might not work for you. But hey, check out this practice. And see if it does. And I won't be offended if you don't like
Jivana Heyman
it. That's so awesome. I love that. Yeah. I mean, it's it's like you said it's equanimity. It's having that neutrality around. It's like service, you know, service or karma yoga or save doesn't have a certain attachment to the result or expectation. It's like, you're offering it and then like you just said, if it doesn't work, okay. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, find something else.
Sarit Z. Rogers
You know. Like, here are some options for you. See what see what medicine you need. Right? Yeah, it's like a buffet take what you need. Leave what you don't. Well, what works for me might not work for you. You know? Yeah.
Jivana Heyman
Awesome.
Sarit Z. Rogers
Yeah.
Jivana Heyman
Thank you. That's so awesome. Anything else you want to share? How tell me how can people find you? I'll put we'll put your links to your website in the show notes, but I just wondered if you had anything about that.
Unknown Speaker
@saritzrogers on Instagram or @saritphoto or and I should say not or and um I did try to separate them like they should probably live together I don't know um and serene z Rogers calm is my somatic and yoga land and serene photography.com is my photography land. Okay, and you know you can read more about somatic experiencing on my site, you can book sessions through my site pretty available these days.
Jivana Heyman
Well, thank you. Thanks for being here. Thanks for all your support all the photography for writing this and contributing to the book in this way. I appreciate it so much.
Sarit Z. Rogers
Thanks for trusting me with with holding your art and making it come to life.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, it's been amazing. Thank you. All right. I
Sarit Z. Rogers
can't wait to see what's next.
Jivana Heyman
Oh, I know me too. All right, see you later. Bye. Okay. Thanks so much for listening and joining the conversation. Yoga is truly a revolutionary practice. Thanks for being here. If you haven't already, I would love for you to read my book, the yoga revolution, building a practice of courage and compassion. It's available wherever books are sold. Also, you can check out my website jivanaheyman.com. There's some free classes on there and a meditation and you can find out more about my upcoming trainings and other programs. Hope to see you next time. Thanks. Bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
