Jivana Heyman
Hello and welcome. This is the yoga Revolution podcast. My name is Jivana Heyman. My pronouns are he and him. This podcast is an exploration of how we can live yoga, right? And how we can apply the yoga teachings in our lives. We'll discuss the intersection of yoga and social justice, as well as how to build a practice that supports our activism. All my guests are contributors to my new book, yoga revolution, building a practice of courage and compassion. Thanks so much for joining me. Let's get started.
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the yoga Revolution podcast. Thanks so much for joining me again. I'm so excited today to have my special guest here Kamala Itzel Hayward. Hey, Kamala. Hi. Thanks for joining me.
Kamala Hayward
Yeah. Great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. It's an honor.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, it's it's an honor to have you. I want to introduce you formally. So I'm going to, let's see, read this. So you're a compassionate and fierce advocate for love. After serving as a public policy lawyer for 13 years, Kamala, left her legal career and founded a tuned living, a mindfulness and wellness organization that helps individuals heal the sense of separation they feel from others, or even from themselves, or unique work based on the teachings of yoga, mindfulness and compassionate communication ranges from promoting social justice work within organizations and communities to guiding individuals on their search for personal and professional fulfillment. Today, Kamala home holds retreats, classes, trainings, and private one on one sessions online, over the phone and in person with people from all over the world. Her mission is to gently remind you of your individual wholeness, and your interconnectedness with others. And all of life. That's so awesome. And we can put a link to your website in the show notes. How does that feel when I read that?
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's a lofty, it's a lofty goal. You know, but it really is what I wish for, for all of us. So yeah, I just whenever I hear my bio read to me or happen to read it myself, I always think of it as really aspirational. You know, what I want to see? And what I want to support create. So that's what I'm reminded of when I hear that.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, I love that idea of a bio as like a mission statement. That's beautiful. Well, okay, what I've been doing in these podcasts is I've had each of their contributors read their contributions. I wonder if we could start that. Start with that. Can you read what you wrote for the book?
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, absolutely. So here it is. My practice is to work toward creating a world where all living beings are seen as divine. We're all people have access to the resources, opportunities and privileges they need to experience safety, well being and freedom from oppression. In other words, I see my social justice work as my primary yoga practice. And while this work certainly benefits me as a being in this world, I hold it largely as selfless service. I'm trying to help shape a direction toward a destination that we may not reach until long after this lifetime.
Jivana Heyman
That's beautiful. Thank you. I love that last part about a destination we may not reach until long after this lifetime. What does that mean? You think like, are you talking about reincarnation? Are you talking about future generations? Both?
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, I was really thinking I was thinking more future generations, and I've really letting go of this idea that there's somewhere you know, I believe we need to get but really recognize that this is all part of our, our evolution as human beings on this planet. And that, you know, the All I can do is just take one step in the direction that I see as one where we're all living in freedom and liberation. And not think like, oh, I need to get there because whatever that place that is in my mind that is there. It's going to shift it's going to move I can't imagine. I don't believe that. Maybe any of us I don't know. Certainly not me has the capacity to imagine what is possible. What would it really look like to live in a world where all beings are free? I don't know. So I just, I move us I, my my idea is to just move as many people as I can in that direction and let go of outcome.
Jivana Heyman
Wow, that's awesome. I love that. And you know, before we go on, I just want to say that we've known each other a long time. Yeah. How long? I don't even know.
Kamala Hayward
I know. I know. It'll be Yes, it'll be this. Oh, probably actually, this year. So probably, I think September, it will have been 10 years, or it was 10 years, I should say in September 10 years.
Jivana Heyman
Okay. Yeah. And through Integral yoga, and we've worked together at San Francisco integral yoga Institute for for many, many years, we've worked together to helping to manage the place. Right, is that? That's right.
Kamala Hayward
That's right. And actually an end even that even 10 years might be a little short, actually. Probably closer to 20. That's amazing.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, I mean, I got involved there in well, I took teacher training in 1995. At the integral yoga Institute in San Francisco, and I was already involved a little bit before that. Yeah, as a karma yogi as a volunteer, but you were around in those early days. And then you kind of you came around, and then you left and you come back. That's
Kamala Hayward
exactly. I came back 10 years ago, but it was 2001 that I was there for the first time. And that's, that's when we probably first met. So yeah, more like 20 years.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, that's interesting, are you still you're still involved with integral yoga,
Kamala Hayward
I am, I am still involved. Most recently, I helped the organization create a program for black indigenous people of color, a teacher training program, that was 100% scholarship based, every student was offered a scholarship of up to 100%. And every student, every, every staff member, every teacher, every guest lecturer was black, indigenous person of color, as well as every student, and nothing like that had ever been offered through the organization. So it was a really, on that level, it was it felt really exciting. And then also, just going through being part of the training staff was just such a beautiful, you know, that alone was such a beautiful experience.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, it was such a beautiful thing to see happening. I'm just, yeah, very excited that it happened. It does remind me actually, of how Accessible Yoga started because, you know, interval yoga was our kind of sponsor, originally, when I started a teacher training for people with disabilities to become yoga teachers, which is where the name Accessible Yoga started, actually, it was a 200 hour training, kind of the same idea of like trading, trying to create a space that was kind of like an affinity and affinity space, affinity space for people with disabilities to feel that they could find the support they needed. And, you know, complete a training and take on that mantle of, of yoga teacher, when the regular trainings out there just didn't feel particularly welcoming or accessible to them. So that's awesome.
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, I mean, that was a huge inspiration to witness that unfolding at the integral yoga Institute. You know, while I was while I was while we were working together, and you know, even the space itself a beautiful, beautiful space, but in a lot of ways, really inaccessible for a lot of different reasons. And so, you know, to see something really grow out of that organization, that was kind of beyond the, both like the four walls of the building itself, but also expanding the vision of integral yoga, or maybe not expanding the vision, but realizing the vision more expansively maybe that's better plan was really beautiful and inspiring to see. So, yeah, I love that.
Jivana Heyman
And you're gonna keep doing your training the BIPOC TT.
Kamala Hayward
I hope so. You know, it was it was a enormous undertaking. And so, I think the staff, the lead staff is just trying to figure out how can we do it without it being quite so much, you know, so all consuming of each one of us, but we have every intention to, or certainly my vision is for it to continue, regardless of what my level of involvement looks like. I mean, I would love to stay involved, but my hope is that it continues regardless independent of me.
Jivana Heyman
I mean, it seems connected back to the quote that you read, and You know, what you said about your practice is to work toward creating a world where all living beings are seen as divine, we're all people have access to the resources, opportunities and privileges they need to experience, safety, well being and freedom from oppression. Seems like I could read in there also maybe like to, to find to get access to yoga teachings, you know, in a way that is accessible and appropriate and safe.
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and yoga, in the broadest sense of the word, right, you know, so many folks here yoga, and they think the postures, they think asana, you know, they think headstands, and splits and back bends. But, you know, when I think about creating these yoga spaces, you know, I almost feel like I need to put quotes around yoga, just to be clear that I mean, you know, yoga as a as a way of life yoga as a path to liberation, yoga as a, as a way to cultivate community and, you know, in our collective liberation, so yes, it's about yoga and yoga spaces, but everywhere, if you you know, when I'm thinking about yoga, that broadly, really everywhere is a yoga space everywhere is an opportunity to cultivate deeper peace within and without.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah. And then you say, you know that, you say, I see my social justice work as my primary yoga practice. I wonder if you could talk about the relationship between yoga and social justice. And I'll just say like, that's the section of my book where I put your contribution. So I have a lot of thoughts about it. But I'm just curious, like, about that relationship. I think sometimes we oversimplify the relationship. And we just say like yoga is social justice. But I think it's really not. It's not that yoga is social justice. It seems like it there's more subtlety to that relationship. Do you know what I mean?
Kamala Hayward
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think so too. I mean, I think social justice is, is a term that can mean so many different things. And it means different things to different people. I mean, even just the word justice. I don't I don't want to go into my lawyer background. But you know, you know, the word justice means so many things to so many people, right. And so social justice is exactly the same, it means so many different things. And it doesn't have, to me, it doesn't have implied a method of achieving it, right? We have a vision of social justice. And for all of us, it could be different. And then all of us have different ways that we think we should or could, or would want to get there. Right, wherever there is. And so when I talk about social justice as my yoga practice, I'm really talking about how I'm working toward that vision, I'm talking about that vision, but also how I'm working toward it. So when I think about social justice, I do think of a world where folks can experience the piece that is their birth, right, which I think is an individual. There's an individual piece to that, but there's also a community piece about our collective piece of that, right, because I cannot be I do not believe that as an individual. I don't believe that we are truly individuals, honestly, we're all part of one greater whole. And so if one person is not free, we're not free. Right. So so. So that, you know, part of the vision is really understanding that and moving and living with that understanding. And so,
Jivana Heyman
okay, yeah, no, please, please go ahead.
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, no, so So for me, that is a very, that's a very, those are really yogic concepts, right, this idea of this, of this place where we're all the same, or we're all connected. And so moving toward achieving that vision with that vision in mind. You know, that's, that's where my yoga and social justice, I'm not, I don't see a big difference between the two at all.
Jivana Heyman
But I was gonna say I could completely agree with you. But I find that the I wouldn't say criticism I hear but like kind of the other side of this that I hear from people when I was working on, when I was researching this book before and writing it. I spent a lot of time looking at this question. And I think some people feel like well, that's not what yoga was designed for, like yoga is an internal practice that's focused on self realization of an individual. And their way you already addressed that because you said well, you don't really see yourself as or right you don't see yourself as an individual at all, but um, I just wondered about that. How do you see? How would you like respond to that in a way like that question of like, well, isn't yoga, this internal individual practice?
Kamala Hayward
When I think about this individual experience connecting with the divine, I think first like, what is what is the divine? If not, what connects us? All? Right, so that that quest to connect with the divine is, is a quest to connect with where we're all one where we're all connected. So it feels kind of disingenuous to say, like, Oh, it's just like a, you know, just me doing this thing with this. One other thing up above me. You know, we're not disingenuous, I shouldn't say that. But it's disingenuous to into how it lives in me. You know, I don't see like, the Divine is some separate thing, that I'm just like, creating this individual relationship with, but part of what makes us one, mate, that is the divine. And then also, I think about when I think about yoga as a, as an individual practice. It's interesting, because I, I've heard this claim as well, from a lot of different people, but from a lot of people who also say, you know, we shouldn't be focused on our differences. Why are we even talking about how we're different? Why are we even talking about, you know, different races? Why are we even talking about different sexual orientations? Why are we talking about different gender identities, you know, we should just, you know, we're all one. And that's, you know, we should just accept that. Both of those concepts, and I bring that up, because I feel like both of those concepts are based on kind of this misunderstanding, that there's only kind of the spiritual divine realm, and that's all that yoga is interested in. But I think yoga is also really interested in this human experience we're having where we are different, where we are, you know, where we are hurt, where we are scared, that the places that would be really easy. And for, you know, you know, maybe it would be really easy to just say, like, let's just ignore that, let's just, we're going to call that not spiritual, and instead only focus on the things we are calling spiritual. And then those are the things that are yoga. Right. Like, I think that that those that miss that that misunderstanding comes, that is at the core of both of these ideas that we're talking about that in yoga is an individual practice, and that we're all one let's not let's ignore anything that suggests otherwise.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I mean, you kind of just summarized my whole book, I think. You know what I mean? Like, I just I love what you're saying. And I totally agree, like this idea of separation. And, you know, is that what is yoga about his love to his spirituality really separate from humanity? I think that's just such a good question. And, and I, I tried to address it a few different ways, like, I talked about embracing our failure. And how that kind of integrating lessons from our life and our challenges is, is a spiritual practice that talks about cultivating a relationship between the heart and the mind, trying to look at how we can bridge that gap between spirituality and humanity. As you said it, I thought that was beautiful. Yeah, I'm so interested in that. It reminds me of you know, I think I in the book, and I always quote, Swami Sivananda, who was Swami Satchidananda, our teacher's teacher, and Sivananda, would say, seeing the unity in diversity is the goal of yoga and feels like that's what you're getting at is like seeing the unity behind the diversity. So it's not that you don't see the diversity. It's that you see both at the same time, you see that there's difference and connection there?
Kamala Hayward
Yes. Yes, exactly. And then when when we do that, when we see that there's difference, and we see that there's when we see that there's diversity, and we see that there's unity. How, for me, how I don't see how I could then watch another person suffer on the human level. And, and, you know, ignore that, or yoga, philosophize it away
Jivana Heyman
well, that's spiritual bypassing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like to yoga philosophize it away. To be like, well, we're all one so it doesn't matter. Yeah. Something or I don't know what it is, is like, you know, on on, you know, you're all it's all light or something. And so the suffering and the dark isn't real. It's like, what is that? Yeah. That's the experience we're having, or someone's having right now. Yeah, I know you've done a lot of anti racist work. And it sounds like that came up there as well, this idea of I don't see color, right, like, this kind of ignore ignoring the lived and often painful experiences of people. Because it's difficult to see or something or because it doesn't fit in with our self image or something like that. The way that I think racism functions feel similar to this.
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, and I, when I hear it's, I mean, I don't, I don't know if it's worth going too deep into it. But when I hear someone say, Oh, we're all one, let's ignore color versus I don't see color, I actually hear those as two pretty different things. And the I don't see color, I think is just, you know, more of I think it is kind of how a person views themselves. Right and, and what they think it means to see color. Right? If you think that seeing color is a bad thing, then you're going to do your really best to not, you know, to believe you, you're not seeing color and to live in a way that you believe that means to not see color. But the reality is, there's color. And we're in this society that that in which that matters a lot. And it impacts a lot and it and it it influences how people experience this society. And for us to believe that we can kind of step outside of that and not be touched by that I think is I just don't think that's possible. I don't think that's possible. So yeah, I don't see that I don't hear that as much as let's ignore color, color doesn't matter. Because we're all one like, let's stop talking about it. I hear that more. That's the kind of the line of thinking I hear more and in some spiritual communities.
Jivana Heyman
And let's stop talking about it. Because we are supposed to have transcended that human level, is that it right, like we're trying to identify a spirit and see other people in that way. And so that gives me permission to avoid or ignore other people's lived experience.
Kamala Hayward
Exactly, exactly. It's like the, it's like, somehow, the lived experience is lesser than this kind of other experience that is being called spiritual. But from my perspective, if spiritual, if spirit is everything, then spirit is everything.
Jivana Heyman
And it's actually a form of privilege to be able to say, oh, let's just ignore that. Because it's uncomfortable to even look at it that you're suffering. You know, I think those people who have suffering or from have a marginalized background come from marginalized background, it's like, are people like, for me as a as a queer person? Like, I know, like, it's easy for straight people to avoid seeing what is like, what my experience has been like. And it can be uncomfortable. But that doesn't make it less spiritual.
Kamala Hayward
Yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly. And it's easy. You know, it's easy for a straight person, I think, to say, Oh, it doesn't matter. Why do we even have to talk about it? Why do we have to think about it? Because, you know, I, myself being a straight person, I don't think about it, maybe I don't think about it, it's maybe it's easy for me to not think about it. Maybe it's easy for me to walk through the world and not be impacted by it. But that's not the reality for millions of people.
Jivana Heyman
Right? And so even even a spiritual person who thinks they're doing good by looking beyond the physical in a way, they're they're denying something very essential to people, which is that their experience, their suffering, there's value there. And we should respect that. I think that's what we're trying to say. And I and I, yeah, I really I appreciate that. And I feel like what we keep doing in this conversation was, we're talking about how there's really no difference between the lived human experience and the spiritual experience that we need to stop seeing them as separate. Just interesting, because if you look at the yoga teachings, I think generally it's pretty, there's a lot of duality, you know, look, I know you're a student of yoga philosophy, so I can ask you this, but I wonder if you could, how can you how do you see that in the yoga teachings? What we just talked about that integration? Yeah.
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I do you know, I do. I do read a lot and do teach a lot kind of the more dual, dual lipstick thing. gain of yoga philosophy, because a lot of that is really foundational to yoga philosophy. And maybe it has historical importance, I'll say that I think maybe that's probably more accurate, it has really historical importance, it's captured in some of the seminal yoga philosophy texts, you know, that I teach, and that I really enjoy reading. And I think it's so important that we understand that a lot of these and I'm not a scholar of, you know, like the the evolution of yoga philosophy, I really am more focused on this one little slice. But I think it's really important to understand that that slice is part of a larger evolution, and that there were there were changes that you know, I feel like I'm, I'm gal going like a tire out of my depth here, if you start asking me a lot of questions, I'm definitely going to be out of my dad. But you know, the philosophy has changed. And it changed up to the point at which it was written, which is what I teach, you know, the writing, you know, the writings, and then it has also changed since, you know, since it first was written, captured in writing, the yoga philosophy. And so I think it's important to just recognize the context in which this philosophy, you know, we're, we're studying.
Jivana Heyman
So like, can you say, Okay, I'm gonna ask you more, but I'm not gonna ask you about the history, I want to ask you just about the teachings, because I know you are a brilliant teacher of yoga philosophy, because I've seen you teach. And I think, I guess my question is, like, say, we look at the yoga Sutras, for example. You know, and you have this clear, this kind of differentiation between spirit and mind. Yes. Right. And it seems like, there's this idea of like the human, you're human birth, your body mind, is separate from spirit. And then we just, were just having this whole conversation about non duality, really, about how there's this integration, right? Like we could really stop seeing mind body as a separate thing, but that it's all part of the same spiritual experience we're having right now. All the pain and suffering included. I guess, I just wonder what your take is on that. Like, because I know you love the yoga Sutras, right. Yeah, you teach them all the time?
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, I do. I do love the yoga Sutras. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a great question. Because I do love the yoga Sutras, I love their, you know, there, those are a lot of those teachings or teachings that I fall back to oftentimes, you know, when I'm struggling, when I'm having a difficult time, when someone's asking me for support, you know, I often go back to the yoga Sutras. And, you know, they are a they are dualistic document, you know, it's a dualistic capturing of yoga philosophy, and I don't think it's, I don't think it's everything. You know, I don't think it's everything. You know, I think the challenge with spirituality, or what, you know, whatever it is that we call spirit. We, the human mind, I don't think can, you know, I can't really grasp, understand, capture, write it down. It's just not possible. So anything that's written or expressed in words, when I believe me, it's limited by this human, you know, the capacity of this human being? And, and I don't think the yoga Sutras are out except exempt from that, you know, wrote. Yeah, you know, and so I think there's tons of wisdom, so much to learn. And I think that there's more that needs to be experienced, right? To really understand the truth of what, what it means to, to connect with spirit, what it means to find peace, what it means to connect with the divine, what it means to be part of a greater whole. And so what I strive to do with my teachings, when I teach the yoga Sutras is to ask questions that encourage folks to look inside and find that within themselves. It to say like this book is limited, I am limited. What is the only thing that is unlimited is only what you can find within you. And so that's what I try to do.
Jivana Heyman
That's beautiful. Yeah, no, I didn't mean to press you on it. I was just because it's something that I struggled with, and I thought you could help me, but I, you know, I try to address it in the book too, like this question of I don't know what the word is interpretation. That's what I refer to it as like, you know, that fact is the teaching the sutras, for example, were written 1000s of years ago and have so much beauty and power and wisdom. But it's like, we still need to interpret it for this moment. Like even no matter how much of a scholar you are If you want to be a practitioner of yoga, your job is to actually interpret that teaching. So it applies directly to your lived experience right now. And so there is this process of interpretation that happens even interpreting from Sanskrit to English, for example, but also translating from philosophy to life. Like there's, that's kind of what I'm trying to get at in this book is like, we need to find ways to apply the teachings and not just study them. Yeah, right. I think that's what you're getting at, too, when you ask your students questions. I think that's what I've tried to do in the book, too. Each section has questions in it. To try to get people to do that start reflecting on what does this mean for me? In my experience, right, how can I apply this in my life? I think that's really worked to me. That's the, the place where the one of the called the rubber hits the road, you know, where like, the, the practice is actually happening is in itself practice, like in action. You know, that's where I find the yoga is most exciting. I mean, I love to read and study too, but that's the easy part. the doing of it? That's really hard.
Kamala Hayward
Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Even the teaching, right. Even the teaching is, in some ways, the easy part. Like, right, you know, I can give you all the examples, but well, then what happens when I'm actually faced with an unhappy person?
Jivana Heyman
Exactly. Or if I'm the unhappy person? Yeah. Yeah. Myself, what do I do? I know, even writing about it, like writing a book about it is actually easier than living it. So. Yeah, I think it's just it's hard because I, I don't want to be disrespectful to the tradition, if anything, I feel such incredible gratitude and respect for this incredible, you know, indigenous tradition from India, or from South Asia, let's say, that has transformed my life personally, and I don't want to be changing anything. And so I always say, like, yoga revolution is not about revolutionising yoga. It's just about the fact that yoga is revolutionary, like, yoga changes us. And that's what I'm trying to get at. Right, like, how do we live it?
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, I love that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, and, you know, along those lines, you know, recognizing that every, every written text, right has its limitations. I mean, I love that you you include so many questions in your book, right? Because that's the only way I think, to transcend those limits. Right is to ask the questions. So yeah, to not make to not make it dogmatic. You know, that's not yoga either. Right?
Jivana Heyman
Yeah. And that can be hard. It can be hard to not be dogmatic. But to keep the tradition alive, I get. I see some people who are very, like much traditionalists, and I think, I think they seem a little dogmatic. But I actually think, probably, they're just thinking they're trying to keep the tradition going. And that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I know, you, you really, you work on applying the teachings in your life in with your students. Right? Is that? Is that fair, is that what you're doing? You would say is like, helping people find a way to implement yoga in their lives?
Kamala Hayward
I do. I really love sharing the teachings of yoga with my students and sharing how they can use them out in the world. And in fact, some of my favorite ways of sharing the yoga teachings are with folks who don't even see themselves as yoga practitioners and don't even think of me as a yoga teacher. So really taking these teachings beyond the mat beyond the yoga studio. And and teaching them as, as the divine wisdom that I see them as well. It's
Jivana Heyman
an example of that, like, who are you? Do you mean people that come to you not in a yoga setting? Is that what you mean?
Kamala Hayward
Yeah, exactly. So right now I'm teaching several courses on compassionate communication. And the way I think about compassionate communication really is a yogic practice. So taking a moment to find some stillness, find some deeper truth, listening from that place of wisdom, speaking from that place of wisdom. And, you know, I think of these as a yogic as yogic tools. So a lot of this work that I'm doing in you know, the anti racism work I'm doing the racial justice work I'm doing is based in yoga, even though no one's coming there with you know, yoga pants
Jivana Heyman
on Yeah, That's awesome that I love that. And maybe you could just tell us more about your work. So how can people find you? And what kinds of things? What can people? How can the public access your teaching?
Kamala Hayward
Yeah. So the name of my business is attuned living on my company. So I'm at attuned to living.com. And I offer several social justice and Ally ship programs, both, you know, just offer them independently and open them to the public or within organizations, organizations come to us to take some of these programs or to offer them in their places of work. And I also do continue doing more traditional yoga work. So teaching classes, to doing trainings, particularly in teaching yoga philosophy, and also some other types of energy healing work as well. And it's, it's all on my site attend living.com. And I would love to, I would love to connect with more people who are fans of yours, bigger friends of yours as I am. So yeah, that'd be wonderful.
Jivana Heyman
That's pretty cool. Thank you. Anything else you want to share about this and your the thoughts you have around this topic,
Kamala Hayward
just that I'm so excited about your book, I love it. And I love your idea of revolution, really being about yoga being the revolution within each of us changing each of us. I just think that's such a beautiful starting point. And your book just builds into that so beautifully. And it's just such an honor to be a part of it. So thank you so much.
Jivana Heyman
Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate that. And thanks for talking with me today. It was great having you here. Thanks for being a contributor to the book. It really makes me so happy to have you be a part of this project. It's just great to talk to you. Wow. Thank you. Thank you, Kamala. All right. Take care. All right. Bye. Bye.
Thanks so much for listening and joining the conversation. yoga is truly a revolutionary practice. Thanks for being here. If you haven't already, I would love for you to read my book, yoga revolution, building a practice of courage and compassion. It's available wherever books are sold. Also, you can check out my website Jivana Heyman calm. There's some free classes on there and a meditation and you can find out more about my upcoming trainings and other programs. Hope to see you next time. Thanks. Bye
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