Jivana Heyman 00:00:01
(INTRO) Hi, I'm Jivana Heyman, and my pronouns are he and him. Thank you for joining me for the Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga Podcast. This is a series of conversations that I had with an incredible group of Yoga teachers as I was researching my new book, A Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga, and I wanted to share these conversations with you in their fullness. Rather than just pulling quotes for the book, I wanted you to get a chance to hear everything these teachers had to say. So I hope you enjoy these conversations. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:40
All right. Hi, everyone. Welcome back. I'm so excited to be here with Judith Hanson Lasater, one of my favorite people. Hey Judith.
Judith Lasater 00:00:47
Hi, thank you for that compliment. I'm glad to be on that favorite list.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:51
You are just because you've had a big impact on me, maybe bigger than you realize, actually. I don't know if I can embarrass you a little bit, just that I appreciate the support of the foundation that you run, helping to get Accessible Yoga started way back, I don't even know when that was.
Judith Lasater 00:01:08
A few decades ago.
Jivana Heyman 00:01:10
So I just, you always have a special place in my heart because of that. And I'm so grateful for your work also around the topic that we're going to talk about today, which is ethics. And I, I also really appreciated, I don't know if well, maybe we've never spoken on this. But I often referred to your work on ethics for the California Yoga Teachers Association.
Judith Lasater 00:01:33
Yes, we wrote, I believe, the first ethical statement, the first, you know, way of making it more concrete in a modern context, what, how we live the yamas and niyamas in when we teach yoga, and in our lives, because the longer I teach, which is now 52 years, the more, less and less actually, I can separate my practice and my life. And I think that's, that's a lovely thing.
Jivana Heyman 00:02:09
Exactly. And I feel like that work you did just, it stuck with me all these years. I remember reading it way back, when I started teaching, and I just I can't emphasize how important it's been for me and this ongoing, I don't know, like practice of practicing ethics, in yoga, and I feel like it's so often lost. And so that's why I wanted to talk to you today. And so my question is really broad. But I'm curious if you could talk about that, especially for yoga teachers, how do you feel, how do you think they can be applying ethics in their teaching in particular? Of course, in their lives, but in in their teaching, especially. I wonder if you have advice for yoga teachers that way?
Judith Lasater 00:02:58
Well, let's I have a couple ideas. But one is if we if we look at Patanjal's Yoga Sutra and we look at the Ashtanga, the eight limbed path, which you know, begins with Yama and Niyama. When I was taught the Yama Niyama, they were taught as proscriptive, like, this is what you should do, you shouldn't, you know, or shouldn't do you, you know, avoid violence and give up harming and stealing and lying and etc. But now, I actually look at them in a completely different way. And I no longer look at them as proscriptive. I look at them as descriptive. That the this is how an integrated person acts. They treat themselves and others with respect. And my second point is, teaching yoga is not a right, it is a privilege. And when we remember that, as teachers and practitioners, it's very humbling that we get to spend our lives mirroring back the inherent goodness and inner wisdom of our students. And we have the privilege of offering them a way to shift their consciousness that can hopefully make their lives and the lives of everyone they come in contact with slightly better. And I'm even beginning to now feel that there's another level of this, which is, we have a responsibility. Because of what we've been, how we've been trained and what we've learned and what we've read and what we've understood. As we mature as teachers, we have a responsibility to share our best selves with the world. And we've been given this great gift of this practice, handed down from person to person for centuries. And it's our responsibility to pass it on in a way that is most that is as clear and as compassionate as we can because we hold a treasure now and the simplest way I can think of ethics is really related to the golden rule that we want to speak and act and when we take the seat of the teacher and we step on the mat. We now are opening ourselves to, if you will, transmit this training this lesson, these practices, that they need to first and foremost come from a deep respect and compassion. How we touch, we ask permission, where we touch, when we touch. When we decide not to touch. When we ask our students to do something that's a little difficult for them, but we want, how do we do that in a way that recognizes their choice and power to say no, but also encourages them to maybe take a slight step forward into the sacred unknown of learning? And so yoga is such a personal practice. It is the teacher and the student in a dance of respect and learning. And that's how I like to think of it.
Jivana Heyman 00:07:13
That's beautiful. I want to go back through some of the things you just mentioned. So you talked about it being the ethical teachings of Yama and Niyama being descriptive, rather than proscriptive. But I'm curious, if you're, when we're practicing, I'm just curious what that means, I guess more. Can you say more about that? What does that mean, when you're trying to practice them? You're trying to embody them, you're trying to reflect them?
Judith Lasater 00:07:46
When you're okay, so when you're doing your own practice, not teaching?
Jivana Heyman 00:07:50
Uh, no teaching, even in my teaching practice. So I guess the way I the way I am with my students is that, you know, would be described as ethical and would reach these, would evoke these ethical concepts.
Judith Lasater 00:08:05
Yeah. All right. So, so being if it's descriptive, it describes how the yamas and niyamas make specific how an ethical person acts. That's those qualities, those voices, in every moment are how an integrated person acts and we can choose when we teach, to remember to choose always boundaries, clarity, support, attention. To notice when we have a slight ripple in ourselves, if we have the occasional difficult student. Or, we can forgive ourselves for our, I like to say "how human of me" when I have these ruffles, you know. But we have chosen this path of absolute commitment to respect for each person and one of the things I like to say to myself is that everyone is Buddha and no one is Buddha. Now, you know, did this person actually live? Gautama Buddha or, I don't know. I have a funny cartoon that I sometimes put on my social is, there's a picture of Buddha in meditation and underneath he said, it says, it's written, "I never really said that." So, if we treat ourselves and everyone as Buddha, as the container for consciousness, then our language and our touch and our words and our intention all meld together. And then we take the seat of the teacher and we speak from our (this is Satya to me), is that we speak our own truth from our practice what we've learned in our life and in our on the mat, or the cushion, and we speak that even though those words or ideas that come through us aren't may not even be original. But they will have power. Because I mean, I really think that what we need to do is cultivate this understanding that our teaching comes through us, but not from us. And that's why we practice, so we become a better container, a better vehicle for this work. And the Dalai Lama, I heard him say once, when you don't know what to do, just be kind. When you forget all Dharma or technique, just be kind. And I think that is the root of ethics.
Jivana Heyman 00:11:21
That's, that's funny, I have to say, because I interviewed Jason Crandell, for this series, and when I asked him what he thought teachers could do in terms of making their classes more accessible, he kind of went around for a while, but then he settled on, you know, I think just being kind.
Judith Lasater 00:11:41
Yeah. And to see, I call it also seeing with soft eyes. So I want to teach people first and poses second, yeah. And to, to cultivate the ability to look from the heart. And to see this person, whatever state of ableness they're in, to see to be sensitive to the suffering that we all hide.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:09
Yeah.
Judith Lasater 00:12:10
And to be willing to act from a place of kindness and clarity. We need boundaries and clarity. I like to encourage my students to, you know, understand. I like to create an environment, which is what a class is an environment, through my words and my actions, that people feel that they can say no.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:41
Right. Right.
Judith Lasater 00:12:44
I tell them no is a complete sentence. And that they can say no to me, and nothing will happen. And I raised three teenagers, and I've heard no a lot.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:54
Yes, well I'm in the process, so I'm feeling it now.
Judith Lasater 00:13:00
Good.
Jivana Heyman 00:13:01
No, I mean, that's the central core of Accessible Yoga is agency, you know, making sure people feel they have agency to say no, like you said. And to say yes. And to engage and to participate.
Judith Lasater 00:13:17
Could I just riff on what you just said? I would language it slightly differently. I would say it's not that we want to make them feel that they have agency, I would say it this way, let's see how this lands with you: I want to create an environment in which people recognize their agency. I can't make them I can't give them agency, I can't, you know, I can only create an environment in which they they recognize and are connected to their own agency.
Jivana Heyman 00:13:55
Right. I love that. Actually, to me, it also reflects kind of the heart of the yoga teachings, which is that the source of our happiness. And what we're seeking is within anyway, so.
Judith Lasater 00:14:07
Yeah, there's nothing to fix!
Jivana Heyman 00:14:09
Right! So, that seems like that's a reflection of the teachings themselves, which is how I like to talk about it that are that the process, you know, of teaching, hopefully reflects the teachings as well. The way we're doing it. And I love that, well, a lot of what you're saying, but you use the analogy of mirror, I think you said mirroring and mirroring back.
Judith Lasater 00:14:33
To mirror back the inherent goodness and inner wisdom of the student. And to do that we have to find it in ourselves.
Jivana Heyman 00:14:41
Right. That's what I was going to ask about. Because I, I keep saying, well, how do we engage in ethics in our teaching? But it seems to me like that, to be that mirror, we have to really work on ourselves.
Judith Lasater 00:14:53
We do. And I teach two levels of restorative training. And in the second one, which is the therapeutic aspects of restorative, you know, it's excuse me, the therapeutic applications of restorative yoga. When we start the first day, we have a little talk before we start, and I say the most important thing is not a question is (to ask ourselves) is not what am I going to teach? But rather what is going to be my relationship with my students? We put a lot of attention into having a list or planning a class or thinking about which poses or which breathing or what sort of meditation we want to have or whatever content we want to offer, but it's very important, I think, to recognize to remember to reiterate to ourselves, what choice am I making about the relationship I have with my students? And that's the key to ethics. What is the basis of my relationship? With these people who are coming to, to, and calling themselves students, all students of yoga, no matter what, how many years we've been in relationship.
Jivana Heyman 00:16:14
I love the relationship focus, yes. Because I think sometimes when we talk, well I don't know, who says this, but I think a lot of yoga teachers might feel like, the way they bring their practice into teaching is around their skill level, you know, it's around like, oh, I can do these certain practices, therefore, I can teach those practices. But I think what you're saying is so much more important talking about working on ourselves, not in terms of, like skills around Asana or pranayama or meditation even. But just skills of like engaging in ethics in our lives and really looking at ourselves, honestly. Right?
Judith Lasater 00:16:55
Yeah. I mean, you know, how can you teach yoga and then lie about the money you make? Which I've seen.
Jivana Heyman 00:17:05
Well we see lots of unethical behavior. I mean, sadly.
Judith Lasater 00:17:09
You know, what unethical behavior is? I think it's where the attention is. I think a really good mantra is, "What am I allowing to have my attention right now?" And if our attention is on the student, we act in one way. If our attention is on what can I get from this student? Can I get praise? Can I get money? Can I get some other form of something that's about my needs? I think what is the intention that we have when we teach is not to build ourselves up? Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 00:17:48
Actually, that was a theme in, at least if I'm remembering correctly, in those original guidelines that you wrote. That part of the one of the things that really stayed with me was this question of what am I? What is my goal here? Am I trying to get something in the relationship? Because I think there's a lot and you wrote a bit about the relationship? Can we have relationships with our students? And I think it's more like, you know, how do we have them?
Judith Lasater 00:18:14
Yeah, what does it look like?
Jivana Heyman 00:18:16
What do they look like? Yeah. And do I need something from them? Especially, like, I, sometimes when people ask me about, especially in the world of Accessible Yoga, a lot of people volunteer, you know, there's a lot of like, requests for that. And so people ask, Is it okay to get paid? And I always think, better to get paid, and then to need other things from the student, right? Like, let the money be the thing they're giving to you? And that's it. You know what I mean? Like, make that the deal.
Judith Lasater 00:18:43
Yeah, because we don't live in an ashram where people bring us a bushel of oranges or something. No, it's just, it's our quickhand way of exchanging energy. It's just an energy form.
Jivana Heyman 00:18:55
But rather than something other, like, endless praise, or, like, you know, whatever, building up our own egos, or something,
Judith Lasater 00:19:06
You know, you know, what I've learned to do? This is a little bit off the side, but I think you'll like it. You know, people will come up to you, I'm sure. And they sometimes come up to me and say, "Oh, that was a great class.' And I say to them, "Thank you. Would you tell me what I did or said that you enjoyed?" Because then I focus on learning something, they might say, I loved your sequence in the form when you do this forward bends, I really liked that sequence. And I've learned something and I can focus on learning rather than, because if we believe the praise, that comes from ego, but if we fight the praise that also comes from ego. So, if we switch to asking them a question: tell me one thing you really liked. I loves the shavasana. Oh, thank you. Now, I'll try to you know, and then I'll say, okay, this I'm going to remember this a little better. Do you like that idea?
Jivana Heyman 00:20:09
Yeah, I love that. I think that's awesome. And also, it offers an opportunity for the participant to reflect their journey, like what they their practice, actually. Yes. Well, I think you know, for myself after teaching for a long time, I see that it's really more about them than me anyway, because, you know, they'll have such different experiences in the same class, right? Like if someone doesn't enjoy it. I can see it.
Judith Lasater 00:20:38
I know, I know. Yeah. It's fascinating.
Jivana Heyman 00:20:43
It is fascinating, but it does help. It helps me not take it all so personally.
Judith Lasater 00:20:49
Yes. Well, that's generally the whole idea, isn't it? I know. Something I realized some years ago, is, and I use this humorously a lot, you know, I'll say to someone, "You know, that's all right, because, you know, I realized recently that I'm not the only person in the universe." There a few other people out there that may have other ideas of other needs?
Jivana Heyman 00:21:18
Yeah.Well, that's where my kids helped me more than than my students. I think.
Judith Lasater 00:21:23
Grounding, grounding, grounding.
Jivana Heyman 00:21:26
Yeah. But students too, you know, and yeah, students have been my teachers for sure. More than anyone.
Judith Lasater 00:21:33
I tell you what, if we ever need, you know, this is what I found, to be more grounded, just substitute a class for someone. You could be God's gift to yoga teaching and you walk in and they just look at you like be are not our teacher. What are you doing here? Teaching someone else's past is the hardest class to teach.
Jivana Heyman 00:21:56
Yeah, that's so true.
Judith Lasater 00:21:58
Because this is what I tell my trainees I said, they come for you. The way that this practice comes through you is a way that they learn it. And someone once said to me, which I felt was a fascinating idea was, you teach the way I learn. And not everybody's gonna learn, you know, we all have different ways of learning. And we, we can find that connection with someone where we teach the way they learn that is so fulfilling. Yeah. I just wrote a book, I'd like to send you a copy of, if you will, when we're finished.
Jivana Heyman 00:22:43
You have so many I've lost track, I have to be honest.
Judith Lasater 00:22:45
This one is called teaching yoga with intention.
Jivana Heyman 00:22:48
Oh, right. I wonder I might actually have it.
Judith Lasater 00:22:52
It's my new, it's new, it just came out. But email me after this, our time together. And let me know if you'd like to have a copy of that. And I'll make sure Shambala sends it to you.
Jivana Heyman 00:23:05
Yeah, and I think I'd love to reference it here. Actually, in my book as a resource. I think that would be awesome. It sounds very connected. Yeah, can you talk about it a little bit?
Judith Lasater 00:23:19
Yeah, I'll talk about a little bit. I wrote it during the pandemic, and about two and a half months, it just poured out of me. First part of it is on touch. The power of touch. No, I beg your pardon. The first part is on language. Maybe now I'm forgetting But anyway, it has a part on touch. And which is fascinating and a part on language, how we language our classes and the way we use words because words are really our product, quote unquote. That doesn't sound too crass. What we give, what we sell, what we offer, are our words.
Jivana Heyman 00:24:01
Yeah our medium, right, it's the medium. Yes.
Judith Lasater 00:24:04
And, and we can choose the words that connect people or separate them, that you know, they set the scene. So that yeah, that words are first and then touch. And then there's a section on like showing simple adjustments. And then there's a section on how to be a knowledgeable student. What to look for in your teacher. Your right to say no and your right to have a boundary and your right, you know, your agency basically.
Jivana Heyman 00:24:40
I love that. That's something I think we don't talk about enough, right?
Judith Lasater 00:24:44
Yeah. educated students, you know? So, and then I wrote an epilogue, a short epilogue, but I really feel it's one of the best things I ever wrote. And if I could tell just a little story about that?
Jivana Heyman 00:25:02
Yeah, please.
Judith Lasater 00:25:03
So one, one day when my daughter, who is my youngest, was in kindergarten, I think they were about out so they probably around six, this two other children and my daughter in the backseat in the carpool from school, and they were discussing who owned them. And this first kid said, we belong to our parents, and that totally fit that child's family. The second one said, no, we belong to God and that totally fit this second, child's family. Well, I'm just like all ears to hear what my daughter's was gonna say. And she said, No, we belong to ourselves. At six, and I felt like pulling over and saying get out of the car, you're done. I just saved you 1000s in therapy, you belong, we belong to ourselves. And that's basically, that's basically agency. And that's basically recognizing that people belong to themselves. And they don't, when you when they're your student, they do not give you blanket permission to say or do or touch in any way that you feel is appropriate. And I think that goes on a lot in yoga classes, that many teachers just assume they can go up and push someone into dog pose deeper, or do this or do that. But we belong to ourselves is a wonderful thing to know, at any age.
Jivana Heyman 00:26:29
That's awesome. I love that story. That's such a beautiful example. I might need to quote that last part in my book, if that's okay. I'll send you a quote, make sure it's okay with you. But that was just summarized where I'm trying to go with this section talking about the importance of this ethics, and how it, to me also, it is accessibility, it leads to accessibility automatically. So thank you for your time, I wonder anything else you want to share?
Judith Lasater 00:27:04
I want to share a quote of mine. "We think life is strong, and love is fragile. But really, it's the other way around. Life hangs by a thread and love holds the universe together."
Jivana Heyman 00:27:23
I actually know that quote of yours.
Judith Lasater 00:27:25
Thank you very much.
Jivana Heyman 00:27:26
I love it. Yeah. I don't know how but I actually read it many times. It's amazing and incredibly profound. And I think because, if I could just say to me, in a way I think you in that quote, you're defining yoga, actually. Because it's like, at least Patanjali's yoga. You know, it's like we've identified with the wrong part, right?
Judith Lasater 00:27:55
Yes. It's all a problem of mis-identification.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:00
Right. And you did it so well. And that was so short. It's like almost like just a phrase, like a like a succinct concept. So wow, thank you so much for that.
Judith Lasater 00:28:12
Well, thank you so much for all the work you do. I hear nothing but wonderful things about your work.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:18
I appreciate that. Again, thanks for being here.
Judith Lasater 00:28:21
And pleasure. My pleasure.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:23
Yes, and yes. And I just encourage anyone listening to study and read anything that you've done. So thanks again for your time.
Judith Lasater 00:28:35
Thank you. Namaste.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:36
(OUTRO) Thanks, again for being here. I really appreciate your support. And I hope you'll consider getting my book, The Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga. It's available wherever you buy books. My hope is that the book will provide additional support for you in your teaching journey. For me, I always need to have a community of teachers around me to learn from to inspire me to keep me in check. And I hope we can do that for each other. So thanks again for being here. All right, take care. Bye.
