Jivana Heyman 00:00:01
(INTRO) Hi, I'm Jivana Heyman, and my pronouns are he and him. Thank you for joining me for the Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga Podcast. This is a series of conversations that I had with an incredible group of Yoga teachers as I was researching my new book, A Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga, and I wanted to share these conversations with you in their fullness. Rather than just pulling quotes for the book, I wanted you to get a chance to hear everything these teachers had to say. So I hope you enjoy these conversations. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:41
So hi, everyone. Thank you for joining me again, and especially thank you to my special guest, Michelle Cassandra Johnson. Hey, Michelle.
Michelle C. Johnson 00:00:50
Hi, good to see you. Jivana.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:51
You too, thank you so much for being here. It just means a lot to me. And I just always love talking to you and learning from you. So I'm excited. I'm excited. Yay. Me, too. So, the topic I have, or the question I have for you is around teaching as a practice. And, and I guess, so first, there's that question, you know, do you perceive teaching as a practice? And then if so, like, in what ways? And how is that manifests for you? I wonder if you have thoughts about that, off the bat?
Michelle C. Johnson 00:01:29
Yeah, I love this question about teaching as a practice. And one reason why, is because I think so many things are practice, and certainly teaching, holding space, facilitation, holding space for transformation, (which is part of what teaching is, it's a big part of what teaching is, from my perspective and my experience), these things are a practice. And I think that using the word practice feels important because, and I say this all the time when I'm teaching or facilitator holding space, practice suggests that I'm learning alongside the people I'm teaching. And that I don't know everything about whatever, even if I'm positioned as even if someone's like, Michelle is an expert at whatever, right? I'm not an expert, I have many things to learn about the topics I've talked about for 20 years, right, there's always something new. And I think that's why I like the framing of teaching as a practice, because I'm also a student, even if I'm positioned as the teacher, which feels important to, for me, to remember, and I appreciate teachers who do that as well. And who's it suggests like, we're on a path, there's a, there's a process and a journey and a pathway for this. It's not like I've learned everything I need to learn about whatever topic I'm focused on. And so I just, I love this framing of teaching as a practice, which is counter to dominant culture. And what I would say about about, especially in academia, teachers, or professors, or people who, like know all the things and know more than the people they're teaching. That's how I've been conditioned to think about teaching. And, and yet, that's not how I teach, because I think that's a flawed model. It sets up a power dynamic that can actually make it difficult for people to learn.
Jivana Heyman 00:03:29
Yeah, I love that. Wow. Yeah. And as you were speaking, it just reminded me of why, yeah, why I'm asking you that question. Which is that, to me, this is kind of the heart of this book, which is that, you know, this is a teacher's guide to accessible yoga, it's like how to approach teaching yoga in a way that is accessible. And I think this is actually the key to it all. You know, it's like summarized, this probably should be the title of the book, honestly, teaching as a practice. You know, it's like, it is the seed to for this whole project, in that you have to come into this work as a learning opportunity, as a way to grow, as a practice otherwise, yeah, it's that top down hierarchy that just doesn't really work. And I think that's all I'm trying to share, really, in this book is that perspective, and then different tools to do that. But I'm curious if you could share more about it, like, how do you...how to do I want to say it? I guess the word that's coming to my mind is humility. And I think, how do you stay humble? I mean, it's kind of a weird question. But like, how do you keep that when say, okay, here's Michelle, the expert on all of these things. And you think to yourself, no, I'm still learning. I mean, is that how?
Michelle C. Johnson 00:04:46
Well yeah, I mean, people who've been in space with me will tell you I say, I don't know. When I truly don't know the answer. And I feel fine about saying, I don't know, I don't make up an answer. I say, I can ask someone or I'm gonna go look that up and then come back to the group, I do that all the time. And humility is such an important way of being in practice for me too, and I don't know, I think it's reflective of that. Like how could I know? Know everything, even again, if I'm positioned as the expert and someone, I was leading a teacher training this past weekend, and after what someone in the group emailed and said, I love how you say, I don't know as much as you say I don't know. You don't try to posture you don't try to make up a thing. You're just like, I'm not sure about that. And as I said before, when I was answering about teaching as a practice, I think I set it up from the beginning, like, I'm not going to have every answer for people. And what I said about, I'm learning alongside you all, which means I'm going to make mistakes, I'm not going to know, I'm going to acknowledge it when I find out if someone's let me know, right, I've made a mistake of this feels like it's connected to teaching as a practice, which is the saying, I don't know and acknowledging I will make mistakes and, and trying to respond once I have made a mistake in the space feel connected to humility and feel connected to, I mean, in my experience, being a good, good teacher. But again, that's not modeled for people what's modeled is make it up, make up an answer, pretend, you know, move through it, and past it, don't actually talk about what's happening in the moment. So that's, I don't know, is that is what I would offer around that meaning, that's what I say a lot of the time. And I'm also fairly, like, I'm curious, and something that I've been working with more is wonder. And bringing that into space, especially when I don't know where the group doesn't know where we aren't sure how to move forward or through a moment. It's like, bringing wonder and curiosity into that which feels completely connected to yoga and teaching and and how we do this. It, it has provided an exhale at times, like the wonder the awe, the curiosity. The, "isn't that interesting?" Not as a way to evade what needs attention, I'm not suggesting that. But more as a like, as a practice in a space. That feels counter to dominant culture too, to be curious and wonder, and, "Oh, I've never seen that before." Like that feels very counter to our shaping and conditioning.
Jivana Heyman 00:07:43
I love that so much. And actually, it feels like yoga, because I think that's part of this is like we're talking about teaching yoga, at least that's what you know, you do teach other things, but I know that's your main thing. Just like me, it's like, how do you share this sacred practice? That's really about getting beyond the ego centered thinking that we tend to do. And then how do you embody that in the way you present the teaching? Which, you know, I'm saying it's like, how do you do the yoga when you're teaching the yoga? It's the kind of thing. And I feel like that's what you're getting at you. It's like, wonder. It's a beautiful word for it, actually.
Michelle C. Johnson 00:08:28
Yeah, I've been working with it a lot. It's also, you know, this conversation is making me think about, when I was teaching in Vermont, (I think I was in Vermont) and it was a Finding Refuge retreat. And it included some movement, but that wasn't the only thing that I was teaching in this space, it was mainly focused on grief and processing grief in a community. And I'm thinking about accessibility. And there was someone who was there the first night, and then the next day, and they didn't come back the third day, and their friend was in this workshop too or retreat, and she said, (they did a lot of sitting on the floor), and she said, you know, this person, their back is hurting today, because they were sitting on the floor. And I was like, oh, there are chairs in this room, although it was a studio I wasn't familiar with, nor did I think to ask or offer that. Sometimes I do. But in that moment, I didn't think to ask that, or ask about accessibility needs prior to. And I remember it was a moment of like, oh, in every training or retreat or whatever, ask if the venue has chairs and just have them sitting there. Oh, there was likely something going on where they didn't feel like they could ask me or weren't sure. Or they didn't ask, is there a chair and I didn't think to ask them there was a whole thing and saying this, because it makes me think about, I could have reacted in a defensive way or ashamed of myself. And I just said to the group, so and so is not going to be here and my understanding is it's because their body is hurting. We've been sitting a lot and there are chairs in this space and I didn't think to offer them to you all, which is my responsibility as a teacher. I was just very transparent and clear. And I feel like that was like teaching as a practice in that moment for me of like, I'm not gonna go internal and be like, "I hate myself" because I made this mistake. And yet there's an impact to it. And someone's not here, at least that was part of it. And we were also talking about grief, there could have been other reasons the person was not there. But the reason they stated is the reason that I was responding to and shared that with the class. And I just offer that as, like the willingness to be in the practice in that way without becoming defensive, engaging that curiosity of like, how can I do this differently, or what might have been going on in that moment? And also, taking responsibility feels like teaching as a as a practice. So I just wanted to offer that, because that came to mind earlier, when you were asking the question.
Jivana Heyman 00:11:14
Yes. And I also heard, not just taking responsibility, but like a willingness to learn from your mistake. And I guess that's maybe the same as taking responsibility, but it felt like in that example, you're saying it's like, as the teacher, you're not pretending again, to know everything. And you're saying, okay, I can learn from this experience, I can learn from my students. And that's that's not a huge thing for me is that having a collaborative relationship in a yoga class and feeling that I'm not coming in above you, to fix you, and I think fixing and healing others can feel like that a little bit can feel like a little bit like imbalanced rather than, like, we're in a relationship, and I have something to share with you, and you have something to share with me. I'll make a suggestion, like, try this practice. And then you can like say, well, or you just feel it, like, does this work for me or not? And you can even respond. There's not a lot of talking back and forth in a traditional yoga class, but at least in my Accessible Yoga classes, there would be like, I want that. How's that feeling? You know, like questioning, like, do you want to try something else? Or someone literally just saying, like, oh, I can't do this. It's not uncommon for me, for some student yelling out just like, oh, no, you know, no, no, no. Or isn't there another way? Or what if you did this? Like, I've had students, honestly, just like, show me like, well, I could do like this. Oh, wow. Like, there you go. Like, thank you for like, teaching me, like showing me I never thought of that. You know, like, what if I stood at the wall and did it instead of lying on the mat? Or what if I use this prop for this part? I mean, they're just people are brilliant and know themselves. And, you know, I feel like they're also they know, their bodies and experiences more than I do. And sometimes, a yoga teacher comes in like, I don't know what it is like, we really give them so much power. It's it feels. Yeah, it feels dangerous and not effective. And so I think that the teacher having this more humility, and interactive role, can actually allow for more healing because it because it gives people back a sense of authority and agency, which is at the heart of the teachings anyway.
Michelle C. Johnson 00:13:39
Right, yeah. I mean, that's my experience, too. And I always say if I'm, especially if I'm leading an asana practice, or a meditation or pranayama, really sort of anything, but particularly with asana, I say listen to your body, which is complicated, I'll say, but it's what I say listen to your body. You know it more than I do, what you just said. I mean, I've said that for years and probably since the beginning of teaching yoga when I began in 2009, I've said that because while I was a social worker at the time, and I had an understanding of, like, we're moving in our bodies differently, we have different needs. Agency has been taken away, given the kind of social work I was doing. And so it was very clear it translated easily to an asana movement practice for people, to be like, listen to what's going on for you, I'm gonna guide you, but I don't know what you need today. I'm offering this and and also the willingness to shift and adjust based on what's happening in the room feels like teaching as a practice as well. Like if half the room is on the ground, in child's pose, or in a chair in child's pose, and I'm like cueing warrior, something. Maybe everyone needs a moment to sit and rest or something. And maybe child's pose isn't even restful, but like, my point is, look at what's happening in this space and be willing to respond to that, which speaks to the collaborative, interactive way you were describing how you like to teach. It's also how I like to teach and facilitate hold space, like, sure I have a sequence and an agenda, but who knows what will unfold it's that wonder. ho knows what what will be needed, what will unfold? And also like, if there's a class where five people are doing different things while I'm guiding something else, I trust, they're listening to what's needed, what they need.
Jivana Heyman 00:15:31
Yeah. I also know that you write and talk a lot about intuition. And I wonder if you could talk about that? Like, what, how as a teacher in a space, does your intuition change what you're going to do in the moment? Is it just listening to that voice? Or do you have any advice? Or is it the same thing? Humility? You know what I mean?
Michelle C. Johnson 00:15:57
I think it's, I think it's humility, I think it's honoring that yoga and many spaces has been taught as if all bodies are the same, and they're not. And all bodies need the same things or hearts or minds, or however we want to frame those. So I think it's coming in with that awareness, I think it's coming in with what we've talked about related to being interactive and collaborative. And the reason this connects to intuition is because there's, in a traditional asana class, to your point, there isn't a lot of talking. But there is an energetic exchange that is happening. We are guiding people. And if we're able to sense or see or feel into what they are moving through, then we can adjust. It's not that we're we're, again, I think saying "I'm guiding people" is different than "this is the practice you need to do." Right, those are two different things. So but there is energetically, it's kind of hard to describe intuition energetically, when I'm leading people guiding them, co-leading with them, collaborating, whatever language we want to use...I'm feeling into what is going on for them or attuning to one another is what I want to say, which is constantly happening anyway, every time we interact with someone. Like, that's what we're, there's an opportunity for attunement, which I feel like connects to intuition, which then allows me to adjust along the way, if that makes sense.
Jivana Heyman 00:15:57
Then that the practice, right? Yeah, that's the challenge for us like, because I feel like you just said, it's so beautifully, like attunement like, as a teacher, we have to be attuned to them to like, we have to be attuned to the student. And so that's a practice, you can't just come in, like with your agenda and just leave it at that. I mean, it's not a performance, you know, I mean, some yoga might be but I think to really teach in a way that's accessible and feels safe depends on that ability, right? That's hard to describe. And you could just set it so beautifully, like attuning to them. But it's not like you give yourself up as a teacher, but you kind of let go, there's some, I don't know, what would you say, you let go of something like non attachment comes to mind, actually.
Michelle C. Johnson 00:18:10
Yeah, I think non attachment and ego which you mentioned earlier, both of these things come to mind around that attunement, which feels connected to the way we are we are interconnected, right? It's impossible for me to attune if I am not recognizing my connection with other beings in the context of an asana, meditation class, or the natural world, right. However, it's so challenging, and if I recognize I'm interconnected, which means I'm in relationship with, and I want to be in relationship, and this is the kind of relationship - I'm the teacher, and they're coming to practice with me, and I'm practicing too. It's easier for me to attune and listen and watch and adjust what I'm offering and guiding and get feedback from them verbal or nonverbal. It's like much easier. So that's what came to mind. It's like, oh, it's because we're connected and that's the kind of relationship that I want to have. So it's when I recognize that it's easier for me to attune to what's needed, and for folks to attune to me as well.
Jivana Heyman 00:19:19
Yeah, I love that part. That is actually easier to do. Because I think, I think for newer teachers, I'll just say, you know, because I've trained a lot. Well, you tried a lot of new teachers. It's really hard. It feels hard to be very present and interactive. You know, it's easier just to come in and just like, say my script or something. But I think I love that you're saying it's actually easier in the end, it's actually easier to be in relationship and to kind of be spontaneous, in a sense, right? To be present. And that's the practice again, that's the practice. Yeah, I was just thinking, what would you say for new teachers, I know you're training 200 hours teachers too right? How do you get them there? Like, do you have any advice for new teachers in this way?
Michelle C. Johnson 00:20:12
I think part of what gets in the way (what I'm gonna say is not simple), but part of what gets in the way, I think for myself or anyone practicing a new skill, is trust and that intuition piece and so, there can be a lot of doubt and also, I mean, doubt can arise because we care so much about what we are doing, like people care so much and want to create an accessible class and space. That's a big responsibility, right? And so I don't want to minimize that. And doubt leads to disconnection, I would say, from the truth, from self, from one another. It really can lead people into the space where they're more rigid about their sequence, for example, then relaxed about their sequence. And so the advice I would give is, is working on, one working on trusting themselves, knowing that their their way of teaching, holding space, facilitating is going to shift over time as they learn more. It's really what you're talking, we're talking about, like, how do they regard their teaching as a practice, and also trust the things they're, they're wanting to try on and bring in and bring in that curiosity and that wonder, all of the things we talked about. But the trust piece, that's the word that came to mind, because doubt is going to lead people to a completely, a space that's not going to be of service to them, or the people they're in collaboration with and teaching. It's just disconnection will happen there. And so it's, I know, there are 500 things to remember, as a new teacher, I remember it, I wrote out every sequence I remember feeling nervous about teaching. I wasn't nervous about standing in front of the room talking. I was sort of, like, does a sequence make sense in the body, does it like and I wasn't a rigid teacher in any way, I don't think but I'm way more like, I'm just like, I trust it's gonna unfold now. We're going to do a thing, it's going to be fine. And I would invite new teachers to, to work on that self trust with with a willingness to be humble and open to feedback and curious, that's the caveat.
Jivana Heyman 00:22:11
I love that word too, that trust. I mean, because again, trust feels like what am I thinking of you know, of surrender of, you know, Īśvarapraṇidhāna? Like, surrender to that divine, like trust only comes if we have that faith, right? It comes with faith, like believing in something, you don't have to believe in God, whatever. But there has to be something you're believing in. There has to be a spiritual practice there, I would say, in order to trust at least in that context, I think. Yeah, it just feels again, like, it goes back to your practice, you know, what is your practice? I love that, I love that "trust". Okay. My last thought or question about this is around community. And you just wrote a whole book about that. But I just wondered if, like, you could speak on building community as a practice, like, what is the way like, how does this expand like teaching yoga as a practice includes actually consciously cultivating community? Maybe you can say better than that, but like, what is it that a yoga teacher or a guide is doing or could do to build that sense of community in yoga?
Michelle C. Johnson 00:23:59
Yeah, I mean, I think when I initially started practicing, Asana, and meditation, I'll say, and then was introduced to the last half, and then went through your teacher training and went to gazillion classes with different teachers from different lineages. That in large part, what I experienced, in this more westernized version of yoga, is people practicing in a room together, but still isolated in their practice. And I think there are many ways we can build community through the practice in the context of a space where we might practice often in meditation, or in the context of some other space where we are in being community together, doing something that's of service or sharing a meal together, this feels like yoga to or talking about a text together or responding to some self study questions together. This is yoga as well. And so I feel like if it's in the, in the context of a, (I'm putting in quotes) "classroom" to decrease that isolation. I mean, people do all sorts of things like, you're in space with other people. If you feel okay, say hello to someone else, say and that's awkward. It's always awkward. I feel like when I ask people to do that, especially when they're like I came to move through downward facing dog. I didn't come to talk to people. But I'm like, and we're not alone in this space. Right. And so I think there there are ways to do, to do that, I also think often what I'll invite people to do is to think about the practice as something for them and bigger than them, which calls us into community, communing in a different way. It's like, I say that all the time as people are setting their intention. This practice is about you and it's about something much bigger. I might even invite people to contemplate what that is, or in service of what, or for the sake of let, right these are ways I think, to build community because it calls us into something outside of our individual human experience. And then they're like practical, say hello to your neighbor things we can do you know, who's on the mat, or cushion or in the chair next to you, right? And there are many, there are many other ways, like if it feels interactive and collaborative, where someone feels like I can ask a question in the middle of the class, even though Michelle is cueing warrior one, I don't know. You know, it's like that kind of where we can laugh in the class at something because I forgot to teach it on the other side, and someone's calling it out or whatever. I think these are all ways to create community in the context of a classroom like that. And then of course, the other reason I spoke about in community and service of others.
Jivana Heyman 00:26:49
Oh my gosh, yes. First of all, I just love how you connect it to communing. Because I think that's such a beautiful way, it's like community, but actually is communing with others and with everything. So like, in a way, isn't that what we're here for, like, what is yoga for like, is to expand that expand our awareness, to commune with the divine, or in others and in the world. But I also, I also have always said about humor, because I have a tendency to make like really silly jokes. Like, I love to use dad, like dad jokes, when I'm teaching. And I think I just noticed over the years that it creates that community, it creates like a bond laughing together. You know, moving together to and meditating together and resting together, but laughing, I find it really powerful. And, I mean, I'm just not funny at all. But I just think it just, it just makes it so nice. I have a moment. And yeah, if it's at my expense fine, or it can just be something silly. Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much. Oh, my gosh, any other thoughts that you have that you want to share?
Michelle C. Johnson 00:28:07
I don't think so. I feel complete.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:11
Well, again, thank you so much for your time and for sharing about this. I'm just so happy. Like so many things we talked about or what I tried to share about and I'm actually gonna go back and change some things and quote you more because you just you say things so clearly. It helps me. So thanks, Michelle.
Michelle C. Johnson 00:28:31
Thank you. Thanks for inviting me to talk about these things. I love it. Love your questions and what you're up to. So thank you.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:40
Great. All right. Thanks, everyone.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:41
(OUTRO) Thanks, again for being here. I really appreciate your support. And I hope you'll consider getting my book, The Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga. It's available wherever you buy books. My hope is that the book will provide additional support for you in your teaching journey. For me, I always need to have a community of teachers around me to learn from to inspire me to keep me in check. And I hope we can do that for each other. So thanks again for being here. All right, take care. Bye.
