Jivana Heyman 00:00:01
(INTRO) Hi, I'm Jivana Heyman, and my pronouns are he and him. Thank you for joining me for the Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga Podcast. This is a series of conversations that I had with an incredible group of Yoga teachers as I was researching my new book, A Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga, and I wanted to share these conversations with you in their fullness. Rather than just pulling quotes for the book, I wanted you to get a chance to hear everything these teachers had to say. So I hope you enjoy these conversations. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:41
Hi, everyone, welcome back. So excited to be here today with Shawn. Hi Shawn.
Shawn Moore 00:00:45
Hey, Jivana How are you?
Jivana Heyman 00:00:46
Good? How's it going?
Shawn Moore 00:00:49
Great. It's a great day so far today, so I can't complain. Yeah.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:53
Well, thank you. Thanks for being here and talking to me. So as I mentioned to you, before we recorded that, you know, I'm really interested in exploring Shavasana with you. I, you know, I had the pleasure of taking a workshop with you when you're a part of our Restorative Series at the Accessible Yoga School. And I was really touched by your workshop, I just felt like, I don't know. It felt well, first of all, people that don't know you, just that you're very intellectual. And so you had this like, intellectual way of understanding it, but also felt really solid, like grounded and like in a way that I hadn't experienced. So thank you for that.
Shawn Moore 00:01:32
Oh, thank you. I appreciate you sort of bringing that into the space and acknowledging that it's been, you know, I think, an interesting intersection with my background and education and sort of bringing that into the wellness space, sort of where that marries, so thank you.
Jivana Heyman 00:01:46
Yeah. Well, I noticed, I noticed for sure. So, I want to talk about Shavasana. In particular, I mean, in that program, we're talking about restorative in general and Yoga Nidra. I think maybe it was what you were focusing on that day, but I'm, I'm just curious about your thoughts around Shavasana, particularly about making it accessible. And I'm, and then, yeah, I'm just curious what you think, as a topic, have you considered that? Is that something that you're?
Shawn Moore 00:02:16
Yeah, absolutely. I think Shavasana, I think, because of its sort of initial appearance of being very simple, a very simple posture, right? And I can even say this as a Yoga, not even a Yoga teacher, but as a Yoga student, very early on, you know, I never took Shavasana very serious of the posture. I'm like, Cool, we just land here and sprawled out on the ground. That's cool. But I think more and more, I sort of want to deepen my connection to Yoga philosophy, and then also sort of deepen my connection to restorative practices really realize it's a very powerful posture. Now, when I sort of connect that to the things that we can do, I think we can look at Shavasana from a level of accessibility around like the props that we utilize, and just our approach to the posture itself. And I will say this, I want to say that probably this is a mild silver lining from the pandemic, because it is like us teaching Yoga from home, that I think we got a lot more comfortable with utilizing things around the house, right? You know, when we go to Yoga studios, there's these fancy bolsters and the Yoga blankets, and all the things right? The eye pillows. And those are great, but I think when we sort of scaled back and ended up practicing, particularly from home, one we, in if you were like me, I was like, oh, let me purchase some of those. And I looked online, I'm like, "Oh, those are pricey." A little pricey. And, you know, we realize that there's a lot of things that we have in the house that we can utilize, right. And I think even from a from an energetic perspective, I think there's something beautiful about sort of bringing your own items into the practice, especially when they're things that have some sort of sentimental value to you, or some sort of connection, right? And so really bringing in like, couch cushions weighted blankets. It's funny, my dog will lay on me during practice, it is the best, it's actually part of it. Like I'm like, when he doesn't come I'm like, hey. But you know, all of those things, even the idea of, you know, lighting incense, getting your altar going, there's a way for us to really sort of create a container of support when we lean into the practice of Shavasana, that I think can be really beneficial. And, we don't have to think about the idea of, do I need to run out and purchase all of these fancy things to really feel like I'm practicing in this way? And so that's one of the reasons why I really enjoy that. And then I think from that way, we really are able to sort of approach it with a little bit more depth. And I say this, I teach restorative Yoga at a studio here in Atlanta. And, you know, I always have to encourage people, like, hey, use the props, they're here for you. And I was looking around the room and I'll see students that are like, they might use one bolster, and there's might be three available. And I think part of that is like hey, there's not as much of a familiarity and comfortability with those particular props. But I noticed when I see people and I teach at home, that people are just embracing all the things right and so there's this ability for us to even look at Shavasana a little different whether we're doing that you know, resting on the ground or whether we even experienced Shavasana from a chair or you know, you know, uplifted In some other ways, in that capacity, so it's just something to think about from those perspectives.
Jivana Heyman 00:05:43
Yeah, I love that. I mean, I was thinking not just using the prompts you have at home, but actually just being home, to help you feel safe. And because I've always been amazed by people that can really get into Shavasana in a public class, you know, it's like, even just as a teacher, I'm always struck by the trust that I see in my students, when they're able to let go in a physical space like that with strangers around them. And I have noticed online, it's just seems easier, we have our own space, you can even turn off your video, if you want, you know, you can just be with yourself and your stuff. And I think safety is such a big part of that of Shavasana. Safety. I was thinking about this and, like the elements that we need to go deep in Shavasana, to really rest and be like, safety, warmth, or just like, the right temperature and darkness and quiet. But I think safety number one, because like if you don't feel safe, and especially if you have trauma and like lots of people do. It can be rough.
Shawn Moore 00:06:49
Yeah. And I appreciate you naming that in the space, I think for a lot of different identities that are coming to the practice of yoga, that's always a concern. And I would say for myself, very early on in my yoga practice. And I think back as I sort of rewind and look at where I was entering in the practice of yoga, it was very difficult, right? Because one, you know, coming into studios, I don't see a lot of people that look like me. In certain instances, you know, I'm, you know, asked a lot of questions about why I'm here. Are you new to yoga, all of these things that are sort of like happening, I know, sometimes it's with the best of intentions, but not really realizing that that's sort of compounding on already a sense of nervousness of being in the space. It was difficult to sort of drop in to these into practices, particularly restorative practices very early on, because, you know, I didn't necessarily feel safe and comfortable, right? And so it's, when we think about that as a yoga teacher, how can we help move folks into that space of feeling comfort, one of the things that's always been really important to me, and I noticed, I do this in a class, I'm the I'm the yoga student, you probably know yoga students like this that, like they have a very particular space in the room that they like to go to. Yeah, that's me, right. And so, you know, I'm typically like, back of the room, typically, like, against a wall, there's some level of comfort there. And so even knowing how I come into spaces, I always try to emphasize that for other people, right? You know, the studio that I'm at now, we lay out props to just, you know, map out the room. But once we get into the space, I'm like, hey, move, where you would like to move. Find comfort. If you want your back against the wall. If you prefer to change angles from the door, right? You brought in the idea of trauma, right? Understanding that sometimes people feel uncomfortable being close to the door with that level of vulnerability, right? So, it's something for us to think about that, like placement, also sort of factors into how we drop into a sense of safety in the space.
Jivana Heyman 00:08:56
Totally. I mean, I think that's a huge piece of trauma sensitive or trauma informed teaching is letting people have choice like over where they are in a room, like, yeah, people often want to have their back to a wall or not have someone behind them or not have the door behind them. And that's totally fine. I think that one of the challenges that always comes up for me is like the other students like and how they interact with each other. Like, well, someone wants to be over there, but someone else wants to be over there, or you took my spot, or I don't want anyone behind me and now you're behind me, or in our little things that come up, like I want that window open because I'm hot, or I want that window closed, because I'm cold, you know, So like, that's another issue I guess that just always comes up is and the challenges I've found over the years, it's usually between students. But yes, thank you for that. And I want to go to like, this other piece of shavasana, though, and that is talking about corpse pose like that, I don't know if you want to, if you have thoughts about that, like, I've heard you speak on liminal spaces. And I feel like the transition to death, or the fact that we talk about a corpse or practice corpse is meaningful. At the end of almost every yoga class, you know, we're doing this practice of being a corpse. And since I think it's interesting, and something that's rarely spoken of in yoga.
Shawn Moore 00:10:23
Actually, you know, one of the very early one, I was like, why is it called that? That's like weird and morbid, right? And in my mind, this was pre sort of doing a little bit more work in connection to the pose. And I was like, what the teacher would say we're going to corpse close like, but understanding like the connection to what that actually means there's a, the idea that when we sort of reached the end of our class, and I always mentioned this as part of my, like, consistent, sort of cueing when we move into this, that we so we move to corpse pose, and, and even moving out of that, going into fetal pose, right? Really acknowledging the idea that it's a symbol of rebirth, right? That, you know, we exit our practice a little different than how we came in. And our practice itself actually serving as a liminal space, I think, is something really beautiful. Yoga, practices like Yoga Nidra, meditation - they have all served as opportunities to really move and connect through change in a really interesting way. And when we think about change, on a conceptual level, it really is moving in a liminal space, right? Something is ending and something new is beginning. And so we're sort of in that space of possibility and uncertainty. And I think our practice is very much that right, the idea that our practice looks very different moment to moment, right? The way you practice yesterday is gonna be different than today, than it'll be from tomorrow, and sort of embracing that level of change. But then also understanding that, what you were able to share on the mat, how you were able to approach the practice, is really sort of left where it is and we're moving out of that in a transformed way. And I think this is where we start to connect to the transformative nature of yoga, that once we move out of that corpse pose, out of that, we're able to sort of embody something a little different, right? It's almost like leaving ourselves receptive for a level of newness to emerge in that space. And so it's one of the reasons why like, as much as I was like, corpse pose? It's like now actually really embrace that when we sort of move into Shavasana. To say, like, really leave it on the mat, allow yourself to surrender, to release, in certain instances of I'm working with clients maybe a little bit more. Frequently, I'll mention that idea of like, you know, we're approaching the practice from a perspective of death, right? Leaving whatever we needed to leave behind, so that we can make space for something new as we move out of this experience.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:51
I love that, It's beautiful. I mean, I think that's the heart of the practice, right? It's, sometimes I would say that yoga is preparation for death, because it's, it's preparing us by reconnecting us with our spirit, right? Teminding us that this is a temporary, mortal coil, right? The mortal body, this is going to go. But you know, the yoga teachings say that that spirit is immortal will live on and so we get a chance in our practice to connect there. I'm just wondering if, do you really say that out loud? Do say that with your, you said that in private sessions that you were? Because I'm just wondering about the accessibility of that, you know, like, how do you approach that?
Shawn Moore 00:13:37
Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason why where I think language can change depending on who you're working with. And how you're. In my general class, when I'm teaching at a studio may not say that, I might just lean into the idea of like rebirth leaving practice a little different than how we entered, right? But if I'm working one on one, and I this is one of the things that I do in my coaching is like integrating like mindfulness yoga, meditation into the coaching practice. It's like being able to have that conversation, right, around like, what are we let letting die so that we can make space for something new and really having that sort of, I think there's a space for us to approach that on a more daily basis, this idea of impermanence, right? That, again, as you mentioned, like things are temporary, our shell is temporary. And how can we approach that with a little bit more reverence? And I think part of our yoga practice is having a level of reverence for that level of change and impermanence.
Jivana Heyman 00:14:35
Thank you. And your thoughts around accessibility? I'm just curious. What you found with your students like, I don't know. Just generally, I mean, around shavasana or other things. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are.
Shawn Moore 00:14:52
Yeah, one of the things I'll say is, and this is probably one of the aspects in teaching that I always sort of emphasize, is just reminding everybody that the shape is going to look different. Like we can throw out the same props for a particular practice, even for something like Shavasana. And everybody's body will need something different. And I think that it's worth saying every time we teach, because it will click for somebody in different moments of the class. You know, as much as I practice and sort of art in the space of yoga. I need it. Like there's instances where I'm like, oh, approach the practice in a way that's supportive for you and then okay, I don't have to do what everybody else is doing. Right? And so, you know, I think that it's worth mentioning that whenever we can, to let people find shapes that make sense for their body in this moment, right? Again, you know, not comparing yourself to folks in the room. But then also not comparing yourself to your practice last week or yesterday, and making that sort of a central part of how we approach the practice. You know, I even, and I don't want to say congratulate, might be the right word, but I call out in class that I'm like, wow, I'm loving the different variations I'm seeing around the room, right? As a way to sort of reinforce the idea that like, different shapes are going to work. And from a perspective of like, and you might see this as well, in the seat of the teacher of like, you can see people maybe trying to find their way in it into a posture and without actually like calling someone out and saying, like, "Hey, Jivana, hey, hey, why don't you grab that block and pull that closer?" Making just general suggestions that could be specifically for that person, but it's not necessarily like calling them out. But it's in a space where we're making those suggestions, because I'm sure there's somebody else in the room, regardless of whether you're catching it or not, that may need that level of option and variation in their particular posture. So yeah, it's how can we emphasize, every time we approach yoga, that it's just going to look different, right? You know, I'll set up you know, maybe supportive or reclined butterfly pose, and I'm going to show you three or four different variations, but then I still say, whatever works for you. Everything I might have shared for you might look right, or might look like it's what you should be doing in this moment. But it is all a suggestion. And you could take it, or you could move into something else that feels right for you in this moment.
Jivana Heyman 00:17:33
I love that I often say, listen to me, but don't listen to me. That's what I say. I also appreciate what you said about not calling people out individually. Because even though you might want to share with someone like you have an idea for them, I do think that can be off putting to be called out in the middle of some inward, you know, you're turning inward, especially in maybe more subtle practice, like shavasana, yoga, Nidra meditation, it can be hard to be called back out. And to hear that. In fact, I was wondering if you could speak to accessibility in subtle practice, since you do teach so much of that kind of quiet inward part of what we do like, like even meditation, for example. I find there's a lot of resistance, you know, a lot of people have resistance to that. And like, I'm just curious if you have tools around making those practices accessible? Like what do you find, helps people to be open to that to getting quiet? Because here we are, like a culture of just being so outward. Maybe it's just human nature, you know, to be outward. But yeah, how do you support people that way?
Shawn Moore 00:18:46
Yeah, there's there's two, two ways primarily that I approached this one is like trying to demystify the practice of meditation. I think that I think that right now, meditation has a very romantic approach. And I think that there are ways in which it is right. When I look at meditation, it is a much more intimate relationship with self. That's how I define meditation as a way for us to connect to ourselves much more intimately. But I also think that, with that, people think that once you come out of a meditation, that you should be floating on a bed of roses and feeling jubilant and free. And maybe that's a byproduct. Maybe that happens in some instances. But in reality, that's not always the case. Right? that meditation is not always this sort of flowery experience. And I think one that is a helpful way for us to sort of approach the practice of understanding that, like, us slowing down and sitting with ourselves can be very uncomfortable. It can be I think I'm comfortable is the best way to put it, it can be very uncomfortable. And sort of understanding that every practice won't yield this level of Zen that everyone and then I think part of that is as a social thing. When I think about when I see him like pop culture references to meditation, we always get this very blissed out sort of feeling and approach. And I think that sort of harms meditation because the moment someone drops in and like I tried meditation, but you know, I just, my mind was all over the place. It didn't it didn't work for me. I think that's one thing. And then I think the other aspect of that is trying bite sized versions of meditation. I always make the the analogy and it's I'm of course never came up with this but you know, a lot of people say this is like, we look at meditation same way we can look at like physically going to the gym, right? And I like to lift weights, so I always use this, like when you go into deadlift, you're not going to go in and immediately started deadlifting 400 pounds. You're going to start with 50, 60, 80, 100, and then work your way up. I think it's the same with meditation. I think that again, from a, from a pop culture perspective, we hear people talking about, I meditated for an hour and all these kinds of things. And it's like, that's great. I've been meditating for over like 18 years, an hour is a struggle. And that's probably not something I even do on a regular basis. But if we look at it, of like, I meditate for five minutes for six minutes, seven minutes, and there's research that supports that we get the benefit of meditation from anywhere between five to 15 minutes, I know, the numbers vary, depending on the research studies. But for the most part, the range is five minutes to 15 minutes, right. And so really approaching the practice that way, a little bit more open to what's happening in the mind. Not trying to erase the mind or have like this blank slate, but just sort of observing and being a witness to what's available, is a much more accessible way for us to sort of connect to the practice of meditation. But a lot of that, again, I talk about this a lot. The idea that, you know, we got to drop some of the pop culture references, the meditation and sort of connect to it for what it is. And it's that sense of just really connecting to ourselves more intentionally.
Jivana Heyman 00:22:02
I love that. Thank you. Yeah, there's a such important points. I mean, there's so much. What's the word? It's almost like confusion or misinformation, actually, I think about meditation. Like you said, that's perpetuated by I don't know what, everyone. And that's really, really sad and frustrating. So I like that you're talking about kind of demystifying it and also like breaking it down into like, shorter sounds like shorter meditation. And what about techniques do you offer a variety of techniques generally?
Shawn Moore 00:22:42
I would always, and I'll share this from two perspectives of other ways to look at this is that, you know, one, try different techniques. You know, there are different techniques that are going to resonate with different people, whether you're doing something a little bit more open, monitored base, like a mindfulness meditation, very lightly guided, I know, some people prefer very lightly guided meditations. And some people prefer heavily guided meditations. And some folks sort of straddle in between, I think that there's power in trying a wide range, because there isn't just one type of meditation. And then the other piece that I would say is approach meditation, we, we typically think of meditation as this sort of, it's just a practice that lives in the mind. But there's actually like, a very somatic part of meditation in terms of how we're actually orienting our physical body. One, are we creating the support, we need to sit upright? I know, it sounds really simple, but it's actually a big barrier for a lot of people that we sit, and we're not really structuring ourselves to be able to focus in on whatever the practice is and in two, it's okay to meditate from a chair, it's okay to meditate lying down. It's okay to meditate in a wide range of postures. We don't have to just sort of stay in this traditional Sukhasana, or seated pose, that we typically see people approach in that way.
Jivana Heyman 00:24:07
Yeah, I love that. I know. I mean, it's frustrating. I you know, because, you know, all of yoga is really about meditation in the end, I mean, that's like the ultimate practice of yoga. And yet we get so caught up in the physical postures, they're preparation and support for meditation, right. But sometimes they're they become, like a priority, like that becomes more important is that you can be flexible or physically strong or whatever. When really yoga, it's about working with the mind. And meditation is getting to do that directly. So I love that. Thank you so much. Anything else you want to share about any of that about that? Yeah, any of the things we're talking about?
Shawn Moore 00:24:47
Yeah, I would just say in to tie it back into Shavasana, or even meditation, it's just be gentle with yourself in the process. I think that's my biggest piece of advice. Just knowing that again, you're going to approach the practice differently every time. And then just be gentle with how you're showing up today, and be gentle with what that looks like in our near future practices. And I think that's the best way we can sort of approach our practices with a little bit more intentionality.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:17
I mean, that's like a practice in and of itself. Be gentle with ourselves, okay. All right. Well, thanks so much, Shawn. Thanks for sharing with me and with everyone who is listening and for all that you do. So thank you again.
Shawn Moore 00:25:33
Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:34
All right. Take care.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:35
(OUTRO) Thanks, again for being here. I really appreciate your support. And I hope you'll consider getting my book, The Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga. It's available wherever you buy books. My hope is that the book will provide additional support for you in your teaching journey. For me, I always need to have a community of teachers around me to learn from to inspire me to keep me in check. And I hope we can do that for each other. So thanks again for being here. All right, take care. Bye.
