Jivana Heyman 00:00:01
(INTRO) Hi, I'm Jivana Heyman, and my pronouns are he and him. Thank you for joining me for the Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga Podcast. This is a series of conversations that I had with an incredible group of Yoga teachers as I was researching my new book, A Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga, and I wanted to share these conversations with you in their fullness. Rather than just pulling quotes for the book, I wanted you to get a chance to hear everything these teachers had to say. So I hope you enjoy these conversations. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:39
Okay. Hi, everyone. Thanks so much for being here today. I'm so excited to talk with Melissa Shah. Hey, Melissa.
Melissa Shah 00:00:45
Hi. Thank you for having me.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:47
Yeah, thank you. I'm excited to talk to you because this is probably my favorite topic regarding teaching. I love teaching pranayama. And I think there's so much confusion and I don't know why, like, yeah, just confusion around this for Yoga teachers. And because it's such a subtle practice, I think people just get lost. So my main question for you, and it's kind of a big one. It's like, how can teachers do better at making these practices more accessible for their students?
Melissa Shah 00:01:18
Yeah, absolutely. It is a big question. It's a really great one. And I think for a lot of teachers, especially newer teachers who are coming out of like, 200, 300 hour trainings. It's one of like, the ultimate questions that they're kind of left with after their training, right? They might, a lot of trainers will focus a lot on how to teach āsana how to sequence asana, anatomy, and they and they may even touch on the breath and share a list of pranayama practices that are really useful. So, I think teachers are often left with a really great toolkit, but not necessarily well equipped to think about, well, what if I have 10 people in a room and they all have different abilities? Right? And so a couple of different ways to think about how to offer pranayama in a more accessible way, is to always think about why am I doing what I'm doing? So, when I'm choosing a practice, when I'm choosing to incorporate a pranayama practice into an entire yoga class. So let's, let's assume that the yoga class has some Asana has some pranayama has a meditation. When I'm thinking about incorporating pranayama to that class, the first question I have is, what is the energetic effect of that class going to be, it doesn't mean that everyone's going to have that same experience that I'm intending, but I'm coming into that space, virtual or in-person, with some sense of intention and direction of when I'm teaching this class, it's going to be either, let's keep it simple, right, like a calming class for sleep. Or it's a morning class, and I want to have them feel like energized the end of the practice, right? So we can keep these two really simple examples. So if those are the energetic effects that we are looking for, then what I tend to do is I take that and I start to work backwards and think, well, if I'm going to incorporate pranayama, then why am I choosing that particular practice? How is it actually supporting the energetic effect or the intention of the entire class? And I think students can really feel when that intention isn't there, because there is a sense of like, it feels a little disjointed, or there's some sense of I know, I'm breathing. And I know it's helpful, but like kind of doesn't really make sense. And then also, because teachers often feel confused right they're incorporating, say, alternate nostril breathing, or anuloma viloma, because they've learned it's a helpful practice, but there's not necessarily that understanding of what's the function behind it. And therefore, it becomes even more difficult of difficult to understand if I don't know really know the function, then I'm not really going to know how to make it accessible. So that's one that's one area I would, I would start with.
Jivana Heyman 00:03:58
Well, I love that because one of the points I make in making Asana accessible is the same is find the why, like, why are you teaching this pose? Like, why? What is the purpose, and if you understand that, as a teacher, it's easier to adapt, actually, for all your students. And like you said, in a group of 10 students, they're gonna have, they are just by definition, going to have various abilities and disabilities in that space. And so same with āsana. It's like, if you know why, then it's easy to come up with a variation that helps someone else to experience that in a different way.
Melissa Shah 00:04:31
Exactly.
Jivana Heyman 00:04:31
But, I love that same thing with pranayama. Like, why are you doing that? It's funny, because for me, I was trained in a very traditional school that was like, we had to do a certain series of pranayama practices, and always a certain way. And so we weren't even given that flexibility, you know, that freedom, and it's taken me a long time to kind of let go of that structure. And to think about the way you're explaining, so I really appreciate that.
Melissa Shah 00:04:58
Yeah, I grew up similarly. In the tradition I grew up in, the practice is the same where you had sort of a list of the pranayama practices, and they all progressed, right? You and you do like the Kriyass or the cleansing practices to prepare and you do the alternate nostril breathing, and you do the other things. And it was only when I really started studying Yin Yoga and the last like seven, seven or eight years, where I revisited all those practices I had grown up with because they all were still with the lens of therapeutic application. But in Yin Yoga I learned, I almost relearned all of those within the context of function and function. Like the functionality of the practice. And within that, for teachers to make pranayama more accessible, when you're thinking about functionality, I think it's really important to think about the breath as a progression, rather than a singular pranayama practice. And thinking about it as a progression can help you. It actually helps you observe your students more, because if you know what you're looking for, then you know, can I actually progress to the next step? And if I don't see steps one and two, for example, then if I do step one, and then I try to progress step two, I don't see step two, then there's really no real benefit of doing step three or four. There's no, there's no like, the function is going to get lost in the class, right? Because the students are still at step one. So what is the like, why is it not okay, why are we not teaching teachers more to say, why don't you just start with A, and just do A for maybe like six months, and I'm referencing this as like that you can fill in that gap with like any pranayama practice, right? But we think of it as a progression, like, for example, teaching the exhale, the first thing you want to look for is, is the person aware of their breath? Or are they not? If they don't have that connection to what's happening when they're breathing? One, that's completely okay. And two, that's a great place to start. You don't have to go to like some fancy breath retention, or a long hold or nostril breathing. If the students or the person in front of you, is still working on getting comfortable with their breathing, or getting that awareness of the breath. That is one, I think, really simple, but profound way to make pranayama more accessible, because you're teaching people how to take some of the pressure off for themselves. To have that have their body understand what is the progression of my breathing, and letting each step take a little time to actually get integrated and settled before you keep just adding on.
Jivana Heyman 00:07:35
I love that I'm gonna especially love this focus on just the first step being awareness, I think is what you're saying. Because I do think that could be the hardest part. In many ways. It's like the biggest hurdle, I think, for a lot of us. And it's funny. Because I think a lot of people come to me who have who struggle with their breath, either because of disability or because of trauma. So I think my experience is more with people who really can't or don't want to do some of these basic practices. And so sometimes this piece is, like I said, the hardest part. Just conscious breathing. Or like, sometimes I was trained to introduce Dirgha Swasam or like deep breathing first. But I think that's really such an advanced practice, just to really like have full expansive breath is not just like, oh, just start there. I mean, it's actually huge. And like, I think it's because what you're saying, I think we're asking people to jump levels, right? To go to this, like, adapting their breath, working with their breath, controlling their breath, in a way when they haven't even figured out what it's doing in the first place. And especially if there's, like I said, trauma or disability, that makes it more challenging. It's just overwhelming. And so I think people get frustrated and give up. That's what I see, you know, students get bored, or think, "This isn't working for me." And so I had to find a lot of creative ways around that. But I love I love that kind of more systematic approach that you're describing.
Melissa Shah 00:09:07
Yeah, absolutely. The, when you saying like, Dirgham Swasam, like that long breath, I think that to start with that, for some people can be really useful, right? But also, by beginning with that in a group setting, there's some assumptions that a teacher is already making about the students in the room. And so I think, one it always just depends, right? It just depends on who's in front of you. But dirgha and sukshma, the long and smooth qualities, are in the Sutras, the qualities that you're working toward in a pranayama practice. Like that's the quality. When your system is stable, right? That's the quality of the breathing long and smoot or long and subtle. That can also be a goal and the goal doesn't have to be reached right away. I think too, another way when I'm thinking about accessibility is, teachers be more open to invite students to try pranayama in different positions, different orientations. And I think one of the ways that you know, many people often learn pranayam is like seated, straight spine, and there is definitely a value for that for sure. You know, being seated for a lot of people, they're like, oftentimes they're more alert or they're more focused. There's of course, a relationship with the breath in the spine so seated can be useful. And, as we're talking about like accessibility, you know, for people with different like physical disibilities, right? Seated can actually an incredibly uncomfortable place to be to practice breath. Or even people who are experiencing back pain or hip pain or you know, any, any pain in the spine, right? Even if you don't have like a chronic disability, if you're experiencing discomfort in the body seated, and then you're forcing yourself to kind of sit up straight to do the breathing. But all of a sudden, your belly muscles are tensing up, your back muscles are tensing up, your hips are clenching, all these things have to tense, which impacts your ability to actually take deep breaths. So it almost, I think, to me always comes back to the why, right? Like, what is the purpose of actually being seated for that person? And is that going to actually help them get that the adequate instructional quality of their breathing? And if that's not where they are today, then can teachers be more open to inviting their students at different orientations, like even lying down on their belly face down or lying down on their back or standing? And inviting students to actually get a sense of, you know, you decide, and you see, where do you get that spaciousness in your breath? Where do you get the most room to breathe? And giving students a chance and opportunity to actually figure that out for themselves on that given day. Because then when they actually do the pranayama practice, say, at the end of class, the students will already have an understanding of, one, they have choice of what position to do the pranayama practice in. But they'll already know for themselves, right? Like how to prioritize spaciousness and capacity for the breath and then adjust accordingly. Rather than, okay, the teacher sitting up straight with no blocks on the mat. So I need to do that, even if it means my diaphragm can't expand, because everything's just so tight and then they leave feeling confused, or bored, or they're checked out. Or, they're also impacting the movement of prana, right? Which can also cause a lot of discomfort even after a practice.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:35
So how would you create, what is the progression that you would do in like, just a full deep breath, like trying to instruct that?
Melissa Shah 00:12:44
Yeah, so I think what one area I usually start with is the exhale. But of course, like we're talking about, right, like for some people, starting with the exhale is not going to be the most comfortable thing, like an example would be somebody who has like chronic or severe asthma or like COPD, they actually might have to start with the inhale. But I think generally for the general population, working with the exhale first is oftentimes easier. And you're also from a more subtle anatomy perspective you're dealing with or not dealing with, but you're allowing the body to actually let go and release before you start bringing things in. So I think working with the exhale can be helpful for a general group class, for example. And so if you start with that, then I would start first with in the lying down or seated position, whichever one's actually more comfortable for the person. And starting with just that breath awareness, just noticing. Trying your best to not actually change what's happening, even though that's hard when you start to become observant. But just having that awareness of what is happening when I'm exhaling? Do I feel movement? Do I not feel movement? Is there tension? Is the exhale short? Is it disruptive? Inviting the student to even understand what qualities are there to notice about the breath first, then, the next step in that progression I would do is look for abdominal movement. So, can the person move their diaphragm, can they move their belly when they breathe? If I'm noticing that it's really tense, or not moving at all, then that might be where I work with them first for a long time, until that starts to and there starts to become more space and freedom there. After the abdominal movement, then I might start to work with some exhale techniques, so maybe some more active drawing in or engagement of the the lower part of the abdomen and the pelvic floor. Once I think in that progression, once the person is established, that they're aware of their breath, and that they can actually like move the belly and maybe even like actively engage it a little bit, then I would start to do some more of the extension. So the yoga aspect of the breath and making it longer. And that could be depending on what works for the group or the person it could be through counting the exhale. It could be through chanting, making some sounds with the breath. These are some ways to think about it. You can also do with movement, right? Like adding another layer of attention can help someone really actively extend their breathing without intellectually having to say okay, it has to be four than five and six, etc. And then after after the extension or alongside the extension, I would do maybe a retention or a pause after exhale, which is another way of extending the breath but it does have some different different effects. And I find that sometimes people who have a history of trauma, holding the breath can be useful because it's almost like there's like some stability or like being held with the breath while they're holding in a way that's different when they're just trying to actively make the exhale longer, if that makes sense. That could also not be true for some people. Holding the breath can also make you feel like, "Am I ever gonna breathe again?"
Jivana Heyman 00:16:01
Yeah, that's why I worry about it just. Again, my training was that it's more quote, "advanced", you know, that I would avoid retention. But you're describing a progression, so that makes sense. Like, that would be something to do later. And, like you said, like a pause or retention, because I think the way I introduced it is pausing. And I feel like that's really, you know, not dangerous, like a pause of a couple of seconds is a great way to experience retention without this feeling of like, holding the breath, which, to me feels like it brings in a feeling of anxiety and tension. You know, and so I worry sometimes when I see public classes where retention is included automatically, totally even in practices, like you know, sama vritti, like a box breathing when they do this, like hold for this certain, you know brand new people, inhale four, hold four, exhale four, hold on the out breath for four, which I'm like, wow, that's like to me, I was trained, that is the most advanced form. So yeah, that worries me a bit.
Melissa Shah 00:17:07
Or the 4,7,9. Yeah. Don't even get me started on 4,7,9.
Jivana Heyman 00:17:13
Yeah, it's just, that's like what the Army uses, supposedly, or something. There's like, it's like, kind of the Western thing, right? It's like the, yeah, it feels dangerous to me to bring in retention right away. But more than that, actually, to me, I feel like it's dangerous, well not dangerous, but not helpful when the teacher is just telling a student what the length of their best should be off the bat. Rather than allowing them to explore that or figure it out for themselves. Because some people I think, naturally have this very long breath. And some people that naturally have a very short breath. And like it can take time, like a lot of time to slow it down for some people, you know, and so like, I don't want to just come up with those numbers like that. I mean, I was trained there are certain numbers you want to reach eventually, right? Like, these are certain lengths of your breath that show that you're ready for retention or ready for the next practice, kind of like a progression, like you said. But to just jump into that feels irresponsible to me.
Melissa Shah 00:18:17
I agree with that. I definitely think you know, retention, I also use the word "pause" when I teach more so. One thing I learned from my teachers in yin yoga was that "pause" is when you're maybe like you have anywhere from like a one to a four second pause. And then after that they call it a hold. But I do think there's some variation between teachers and how they word that.
Jivana Heyman 00:18:40
I like that. I've always said under five seconds feels okay to me, like holding the breath under five seconds is pretty much okay. But even in box breathing that four seconds feels yucky. I don't know why.
Melissa Shah 00:18:52
Yeah. With the accessibility piece for teachers in pranayama too, the thing what you're really touching on is how to prepare your students. So aside from inviting them to maybe do pranayam in different orientations to prioritize spaciousness of breath. And in addition to thinking about progressing, right, and when I say progressing, like you can't do all of those things in one class. When you think about progression, it's like over time, right? And, and with that, like you have to really observe your students, you have to watch them. You know, teaching with your eyes closed is not going to work at all, at all. And I know it's harder on Zoom or virtually when the videos off and things like that. But it's okay to tell some of your students, especially the first time you're meeting them, would you mind keeping your video on for the beginning of class, just want to make sure your setup, okay, make sure the instructions landing, okay, and then you're welcome to turn your screen off. Like it's okay to ask your students that too. They might say no, and that's also okay, right? But you need as a teacher, like, you need information, you have to be able to like, especially when you're in person, like you have to watch your students because if you're trying to invite in five, six different progressions of the breath in one, class, one, that's a way too many things for the student to you want them to extend their breath and you want them to hold you want them to count, you want to do it with movement, and you want them to chant. It's so many different tools, you're asking them to digest one experience, there's no way like any of them, any student or any person is able to actually digest or integrate any of those things, right? And so when you're thinking about it, when we're thinking about accessibility, I also think about how are you preparing? How are you preparing the students to do what you want them to do? If you're doing sama vritti breathing, like the box breathing, hold after inhale and exhale. Okay, what are the steps you're doing before that to make sure they're actually prepared to do the thing? How are you actually bringing them out of the practice? And I think that touches on how vinyasa is not like, I mean, I know you already know this, right. But vinyasa is not like the chaturanga to the downward dog, the uppward dog. It's like the vinyasa is that in vinyasa krama is like that intentional step by step you're giving in any practice you do. That could be meditation, it could be pranayam, it could be Asana, anything. And that includes like how you get there, but it also includes how you take them out. And that is as much a part of the main part of the pranayama practice as anything else.
Jivana Heyman 00:21:18
And one last thing I'm wondering about is around trauma, because you mentioned that that I was intrigued by you saying that you find some students who have had trauma, like holding the breath. I think maybe that's because it's a natural instinct to do it. I'm not sure. Anyway, well, I guess what I was gonna get to is, for me, trauma sensitive teaching and being conscious of trauma, whatever we call it, is like, the core of accessibility. Like we can't talk about accessibility without addressing trauma. And so that's why I go to questions of control. And I feel like a lot of the, to me a lot of the helpful advice for yoga teachers is to really not to control what the student is doing as much hand over that power to the student to like, not to like to re empower them just to like, help them learn techniques and tools that they can use for themselves, rather than, like, do what I say and to, like, avoid that top down hierarchical, you know, teaching that we do. And I wonder for you with pranayama. How do you do that? I guess you already explained in a way it's like through your levels, but like, how much choice do you give students? And how do you, what if someone's having a negative reaction? Like, have you had that experience?
Melissa Shah 00:22:33
Yeah, I definitely have. Yeah, and, you know, there, I think there's a balance between, like what you're saying, I mean, definitely, with the control piece, there's a balance between teaching enough so that students have the agency to just have their own experience. But also giving enough structure that they don't feel like you're just throwing them out in the ocean in a boat without a sail. Right? Like, I think one of my pet peeves, I mean, I I'm sure I've done this before, but one of my pet peeves is when teachers say, maybe in front of every single prompt, right? You might want to do this, or you might want to do that. And as a student, sometimes I'm like, sowhat should actually do?
Jivana Heyman 00:23:17
I mean, Invitational language, like, sometimes I'm like, okay, just stop, you know, just just tell me what to say. Just tell me, just tell me, like invitation if every sentence is inviting me in, it's overwhelming. And yet, I think there's something meaningful behind that idea, like giving choice. And I would say to me, well, I'll give you one of my things around it is like, if I'm teaching pranayama and say, we're gonna do 10 minutes of pranayama in this class, or five minutes, even. I'll start by saying, you know, we're going to do pranayama if you feel like it's uncomfortable, stop at anytime, or whatever, just like some kind of disclaimer or some out right away, and then go into the teaching, but like, somehow, say, in there, make this your own. Right?
Melissa Shah 00:24:02
I think, when you're asking about, like how that experience people having, you know, a negative experience, or, you know, maybe not that, like, energetic effect, or that impact, I wanted. But yeah, that definitely happens. And I usually preface the class, like with what you're saying. And I think that is really helpful in the beginning. And to maybe even mentioned it again, in the middle of class, you know, especially as you're progressing in a particular pranayama practice. What I will often do is, with any kind of practice, is there some preparation, so some breath awareness, or if we're working with the exhale, they're starting to work on the exhale technique of engaging the abdomen or with movement or something, right? And there's that preparatory piece and then there's like the, then there's the main practice, or like what I'm inviting them to do. When we're starting that I'll always, almost always will invite students: try it a couple of times, see what happens, if you're noticing. And instead of sometimes I'll say discomfort, but sometimes we'll give them specific things to look for. So if you're noticing that you're gasping for air on the inhale, or if you're noticing that there's a lot of rigidity in your abdomen, these are just some examples right of things to look for. So if you're noticing XYZ or if it's making you feel anxious or dizzy, then go back to this and they already have something to go back to because they've already done the preparation. So that's something that's something I'll do a lot and like most. I teach a Tuesday pranayama class for BIPOC. We only do pranayama basically for 30 minutes, and we play around with a specific theme or function of the practice, but we might go added a few different ways for them to explore an experience. So an example would be extending the hold after exhale. Right? So one way to do that is you hold for one second, then you add one every single time. 123456. Right? So within that, one way to allow that time informed approach to allow people to come back to themselves whenever they want, is to take your time to show the step by step, give them time to actually do this step by step and then also give them at least one or two ways to come out. If it's uncomfortable, or a tangible way, or tangible instruction to do less. I think it's also super helpful to say you're welcome to stop, but they're also coming to practice pranayama. Right? So it's pranayama class, so teachers do need to learn how to give their students different ways of getting the same function without disturbing their system too much. So extending the exhale, for example, if they start with one, the instruction I'll give is "Keep going until you get to your maximum comfortable pause." And I might describe like, what does that actually mean? So maximum comfortable pause means that you're able to comfortably hold the breath, but when you inhale, you can take a comfortable inhale. So you know, you've gone too far on that hold if you're going *gasping* right on the inhale, like, you know. And sometimes like, having that experience will just help remind them, right, like, maybe a six hold is actually too long. Okay, now we can go with four, but they've already done all the steps, right? So they, they feel really guided on how to go back. Versus like feeling like they have to fit themselves in some kind of like neat little box of what the teacher is trying to facilitate, because then it becomes about it's an it's a teacher's experience. It's not the student's. Yeah. Is that helpful?
Jivana Heyman 00:27:30
Yeah, I mean, I could talk to you about it forever. It's like my favorite thing, honestly, like, I don't know why? Like, where are all yoga teachers talking about pranayama? Like, I don't understand. Like, it's so incredible and so powerful. And I just, I can tell you, I know you're passionate about it. I know, it's like, your thing. And so I'm just so grateful for all of that. Anything else you want to share, where we end?
Melissa Shah 00:27:52
Ummmm, you know, I think one thing I wanted to share that kind of touches into Asana a little bit. And I'm sure this is going to be in your be in your book anyway, about breath and movement. So you know, one of the things I teach a lot in my classes and with my, with my one on ones is learning how to move with breath. But really, what it is, is learning how to let your breath guide how you're moving. And one thing I just want to name is like that's not a beginner practice at all. And yes, like that is something in classes, like you want to teach your students how to connect those two things together. But it's just, I think, a reminder to teachers that that is extremely hard to do, like to really be able to match the pace that you're moving with your breathing and have both be at a comfortable pace. That is like that is a progression in the pranayama process, you know, and so not to pressure yourself or your students to have to be there right away. But you can still, you can still bring in the language to invite them to come back to that again and again. And you can use pranayama as a way to teach people how to do that in really simple ways. Like just lifting the arm up and down, or just opening and closing the hands or doing yasa with your fingers. These are small movements that many people who are able to, for example to move their arms like can do, but then you're not adding an element of moving the arms and the spine and the legs. You're taking just one element and you can use pranayama to really guide people to that connection for themselves. But also that it's it's not easy, and it's definitely there's a reason it's not the first thing in the progression of pranayama.
Jivana Heyman 00:29:39
I love that. I mean, usually when I teach Asana, it's really more warm ups because I what I'm doing, I call it warm ups because what I'm doing is that I'm just making small movements and connecting with the breath. And I feel like that's that's the key, like, doesn't really matter if you can make these complicated shapes. Like let's focus on this. For so many reasons. Not only does it help prepare for pranayama, but it also engages the mind more. So it feels more like you're getting that focused yogic experience by being engaged in this like it's not just some random movement, you're actually really engaging with your body and your breath simultaneously. So I love that I love that the way you're connecting pranayama back to Asana and also like when you mentioned singing like I just think that's so exciting to I've seen that or chanting, you called it chanting. But I also say singing. I've had many students, like older students, who can sing who when I tell them to focus on their breath, they just stop breathing. But then I hear them sing and they can like hold this note forever and it's like what? Anyway. Oh my god. Okay. I don't want to take more your time. But really thank you so much. That was incredible.
Melissa Shah 00:30:48
Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 00:30:48
I hope to talk to you later. Thank you so much.
Jivana Heyman 00:30:49
(OUTRO) Thanks, again for being here. I really appreciate your support. And I hope you'll consider getting my book, The Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga. It's available wherever you buy books. My hope is that the book will provide additional support for you in your teaching journey. For me, I always need to have a community of teachers around me to learn from to inspire me to keep me in check. And I hope we can do that for each other. So thanks again for being here. All right, take care. Bye.
