Jivana Heyman 00:00:01
(INTRO) Hi, I'm Jivana Heyman, and my pronouns are he and him. Thank you for joining me for the Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga Podcast. This is a series of conversations that I had with an incredible group of Yoga teachers as I was researching my new book, A Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga, and I wanted to share these conversations with you in their fullness. Rather than just pulling quotes for the book, I wanted you to get a chance to hear everything these teachers had to say. So I hope you enjoy these conversations. Thanks for being here.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:40
Hi, everyone. Thank you for coming to this conversation. So excited to be here with Tracee Stanley. Hi, Tracee.
Tracee Stanley 00:00:46
Hello, how are you, Jivana?
Jivana Heyman 00:00:49
I'm good. How about you?
Tracee Stanley 00:00:50
I'm doing well. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 00:00:52
Yeah, thank you so much for being here. I love talking to you. I love your work of your books. I'm so well excited about your new book. Anyway, thank you, I particularly want to talk to you about the subtle practices of Yoga and how we can make them accessible. That's the part I always think of you around Yoga Nidra and meditation. And I just know you have so much insight and wisdom to share about those things. And I'm just curious what comes to you, like your have thoughts right away around making those practices accessible, the subtle practices of Yoga.
Tracee Stanley 00:01:30
You know, I wouldn even say that maybe the subtle practices of Yoga are the most accessible practices. Because these are the practices that require us to bring our awareness inward. And to really practice Pratyahara, drawing the senses inward, and then observing, and noticing what it is that we feel, sense, and maybe even see. And when I say see, I mean see with the inner eye, not with the outer eye. And that then leads us to the inner, the inner eye like, inner deeper self. I didn't even realize that until just now. But that leads us to the inner self, the deeper self, where we can begin to kind of let go of that external part of ourselves that the world sees.
Jivana Heyman 00:02:36
Yeah, I love that inner eye, and the inner eye. Thank you for that. Wow. I love that idea of them being the most accessible. I agree I sometimes will I share about that in the book about how these practices are simultaneously accessible and advanced, you know, and it just shows kind of misunderstanding we have around accessibility and around Yoga in general. And spiritual practices in general, you know, it's like, the closest thing, right? It's the closest thing. It's who we are already, actually. And yet it feels it can feel like it's far away like it's unreachable. And I think it just seems like it has to do with our perspective or how we are approaching, you know.
Tracee Stanley 00:03:26
Yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean, I think that when we start to consider accessibility in Yoga, and we have to remember right, that Yoga has eight limbs. And so when we are talking about Yoga, at least for me, I'm speaking about the practices that bring us to the state of Yoga, as opposed to what we have been conditioned to think about or see when we hear the word Yoga is generally, right, the physical posture. And there's so much more to the practice of Yoga than the physical posture, if we think about this idea of Asana. Asana can mean this place of support, where we are supported, and that support, or that seed of support or that pose of support, doesn't have to be like some quote/unquote, "advanced posture", I found that the simplest postures are sometimes the most difficult. Laying down, right, can be sometimes the most advanced posture. Savasana can be the most advanced posture.
Jivana Heyman 00:04:48
Right, there it is again, you know, it's accessible and advanced, right. So how, I guess, I think, I think you do this naturally. So maybe you don't even really think about this, but I'm just curious how you make something like that. The subtlety of it and the advanced part of it available, do you know what I mean?
Tracee Stanley 00:05:10
Yeah, I do. I you know, it's funny because I don't often use the word advanced. I have kind of dropped it from my teaching, because I feel like this, this idea of advanced, it creates a striving and a constriction in both the body and the mind. And then It starts to kind of load up all of these shoulds into our practice, I should be able to do this or, you know, whatever the case may be. And my experience has been actually those who approach practice with a beginner's mind. Like, whether it's intentionally coming in with the beginner's mind and letting go of everything you think, you know, or someone who is literally a beginner. When they do practices, they're having the most sublime, profound experiences. Because there's no expectation, there's no hierarchy in the practice. It's just like, "Oh, here's my experience. It's like, wow, this is incredible." And not only did you have this sublime, profound experience, but your ability to be able to articulate what it is your ability to be able to articulate what it is that transpired for you, is also a transmission. So how is it that someone who is a quote/ unquote, what we call "beginner", sits down to do a practice, and then is able to transmit the experience in the same way that an experienced teacher or maybe even better than an experienced teacher might be able to do?
Jivana Heyman 00:07:12
Awesome, I agree. I've heard, I've learned so much from my students in that process of kind of being surprised, you know, by what they discover. Yeah, I hadn't thought about so much. I guess I always get, I get caught up in the obstacles, I always want to overcome them for people. And so I mean, I've had students who say, you know, I can't meditate.I can't, I can't, I can't. And there's a lot of that. And so I guess, that's what I'm wondering how, you go about that.
Tracee Stanley 00:07:48
Yeah, I think that we have to kind of deconstruct what we think meditation is. And I can go back to the first time that I ever contemplated meditating. And I remember, the whole thing was about how I was sitting. Right, because all of the things that I had seen and read about meditation was like, Oh, you have to sit in Lotus Pose, and your spine has to be absolutely straight. And it's like, well, my legs don't do that. Right. And so I think that if we can allow people to, again, go back to the eight limbs of Yoga, and the kind of steps that lead to the state of meditation. And if we think about meditation, as a state of grace, something that descends, it's not something that we can actually make happen, no matter how, quote unquote, perfect we think the posture is, or how advanced we think the, you know, technique is, is that all we're doing is preparing. And I think if we allow people to kind of tune into this idea that we're just preparing for that moment, where something, grace just drops in. And it's almost like sometimes you feel like the elevator just dropped, you know, two floors, that all we're doing is preparing it takes away this kind of constriction, expectation, performance of what it means to meditate.
Jivana Heyman 00:07:50
That is so helpful, honestly, like that. I mean, because I love that phrase, you're framing it as preparation. And it makes so much sense because really all, I mean, all the other practices are framed as preparation for meditation, but then meditation itself, it's like somehow, and maybe it's me, you know, just the way I've thought about it. It's like, well, then you're actually doing it. Right. But it's like, all of it is preparation.
Tracee Stanley 00:10:18
That's right. Yeah. And I don't think that we learn that, framed in that way. And that literally every meditation or quiet moment that you do, including practicing the Yamas and Niyamas, is the preparation that even if yesterday, I didn't have a blissful, sublime amazing experience in my meditation, and maybe, in fact, it was very distracted and, you know, chaotic in some way. That's still, that meditation, is still a preparation for me in my, in my daily practice. And so I think a lot of times we we tend to want to grade our experiences. And we want to say, "Oh, I had a bad meditation today." No, you didn't. You you had a practice that is creating a cumulative effect, not only on your nervous system, but on your entire practice. And then I think when we come into community a lot of time. And this is something that I've tried to shift in the communities where I'm holding space, is that we want to compare our experience because there's always going to be one or two people who can talk about the rainbows and unicorns and celestial objects that they saw in their meditation. And then it leaves other people feeling bad, or some other kind of way, because they're not visual, and they haven't seen anything, and they don't see colors. And it's like, this is an opportunity, this practice of meditation for us to get to know ourselves. Like, being visual, or audio or sensory is not one is not better than the other. And maybe the person who has the most advanced practice is the one who doesn't see feel or sense anything, but they are just in complete Shraddha, they're in complete faith, and complete acceptance of just what is.
Jivana Heyman 00:12:42
Well, I'm still stuck on this, I mean, just loving this concept of preparation, meditation as preparation, preparation for grace, maybe, is what you said. And that reminds me of, you know, when I was trained, it was there was always so much preparation for meditation. I mean, we had it was, it was a ceremony, you know, like, we did the many, many mantras, like many, many, many mantras, and tons and tons of pranayama. And like, in my, in my tradition, we sat, we set three times a day, but most of that time, you know, about an hour each, but most of that time is spent chanting and breathing. Like there's actually the periods of silence, you know, 10 or 15 minutes, but which is a lot. But if you think about the bulk of that time is still praying, really, it's really praying. And I feel like it's lost. I mean, I don't know, even in my classes is often lost, I don't, I can't come in and be chanting, chanting, chanting, mostly in practices I'm or that I'm leading these days. But I do try to bring in the concept of surrender, like bowing, before you begin, right? Of doing some chant, or mantra, or some centering before you begin, of doing the breathing, first, of ending with dedication, you know, dedicating your practice to something. Could be yourself, or to somebody else, or something. But I feel like those aspects so often are lost, you know, these days,
Tracee Stanley 00:14:20
I completely agree with you. I think that when we're in this place where the practice is all about me, and my individual, salvation and liberation, then that's what happens, right? When we separate ourselves from nature, we forget that we are all connected, and that my well being is directly related to your well being and vice versa. So, I remember being with a teacher and that teacher offering (and I had been practicing Yoga for quite a while) and that teacher saying, okay, now, you know, we've just done this whole practice of days upon days of learning this, you know, long mantra, and learning this practice, now offer the fruits of this practice to the wellbeing of the community around you. And it was like, oh, you know that this feels good, because not only does it take away this gripping that I might have over what am I going to get out of this meditation? What am I going to get after doing 250,000 mantras with this, you know, Purashcharana. And it released this kind of extraction quality that happens in Western Yoga. And so, you know, I, for me, as a teacher, I try to encourage and inspire people to in first notice, how are they extracting? You know, are you coming to the retreat? Because you want to learn how to do your own retreat? Are you coming to the free workshop, because you want to create some memes for your social media based on what you're learning today? You know, because how we receive the wisdom, and the experience changes when we're in extraction mode?
Jivana Heyman 00:16:34
Hmm. Yeah. I mean, that's really the, it's the issue with cultural appropriation. But it's interesting that you how it's personalized too. That it's actually, you know, it's like cultural appropriation isn't just the way we take practices from indigenous cultures and make money off them. But it's actually also the, the way we change them internally. And, and actually, they lose their meaning, in a sense, because they become about ego.
Tracee Stanley 00:17:12
Well, we also make it about a quick fix. And so a quick, a quick manifestation, a quick fix. And so I think that, going back to what you started with, is that when you're trying to make something convenient, fast, you know, you're creating a hack out of some practice that you may have learned and now you're trying to make it shorter and more accessible (because now we're using accessible in a different way, in a term) is that it becomes watered down, there is no longer any time to, you know, offer to the community, the fruits of the practices, there is no longer the patience to chant a mantra online 108 times. Right. It's like, oh, I want to get this, like, give me the quick thing. And so I think that that's a real issue in Western Yoga. And I'm, you know, super grateful to my teachers, because, you know, there was this kind of directive of, here's how you do the practice, here's do the 125,000 mantras. And then once you're done with that, then come back, and then I'll give you the real practice. So I think, yeah, there's a, we have lost. And I don't think it's completely lost. But I do think that if you're looking for potency, and if you're looking for a practice that will last you for a long time, like the fruits of that will last for your community and for you a long time, then you have to go a little bit deeper. The surface thing is not going to work.
Jivana Heyman 00:19:12
Right, I mean, it's hard. It's hard work. To put in a lot of time. I appreciate that. I haven't thought of it quite that way. And I mean, it's true. I just put in, I mean, gosh. Like I didn't like when I, I remember when I took teacher training, I already been practicing for years. And I thought, okay, now I want to try and teach and I didn't feel like I understood it that well. I didn't feel like I understood it that well, like, I just did what it was so fast. It was like, What 200 hours. I was like, wait, that was all too much for me. And so then I just I took it again, you know, and then I and then I volunteered so I could take it again. Right? And then a fourth time, like literally I took the same training at least four times. And eventually I said to them, I want to just be here, like I volunteered to support staff, just to be in the room. I just wanted to hear it again. And I just realized, like, I couldn't hear it enough times. Like it's not you know, it's it's not like they are ideas that we can just get. I mean, sometimes you can have that, but it just it's like, you know, like water on rocks.
Tracee Stanley 00:20:21
I agree. I mean, for me the first 200 hour training I took I was not planning on teaching. Yeah, I was just wanting to deepen my practice and I would say there were maybe one or two things that really landed. Or at least I thought they landed more than anything else. And everything else was kind of like what is, what do you mean, what is the Koshas? What are you talking about? Like, what are the Vayus? What, where? I don't feel them, I don't see them. And it was the same thing. I took many trainings over and over, read more and more. And still, even after all of the practice and all that, it's like, I can read something else. Or I can do another practice from a different tradition based on the same. And it's like, oh, this is another portal. This just is never ending. And if I'm devoted to my practice, then it really makes it beautiful for me to keep unfolding and learning and deepening. But if I feel like I'm trying to get something, then it feels like a never ending journey that doesn't feel as sweet.
Jivana Heyman 00:20:32
Yeah, reminds me there's a story and I don't even know where. My teacher would share this story, but the student coming to a teacher, saying, "Please teach me", you know, to the master. And the master said, you know,you're not ready, you know, come back when you're ready. And and then so he came back like the next year. And he said, he said, here, okay, sit down, have tea, and he gave him a cup of tea. And he just kept pouring the tea, fill the cup, and he kept pouring, and it just just pouring all over spilling all over. And he said, you know, what, are you doing stop, you're making a mess. And he's like, well, that's your mind. You know? Do you follow anything I pour in will just pour out time. Like, yeah, and you mentioned beginner's mind. I mean, it's so hard. How about for us teachers, I wonder if you have advice, because really, this audience is mostly Yoga teachers. And that's who I'm really trying to support in this project is Yoga teachers, who I feel, you know, I mean, some maybe are brand new, but probably more experienced teachers, too, are just trying to find a, I don't know, inspiration and a new way. And you know, our minds are full. How do we go back to that? Any suggestions?
Tracee Stanley 00:23:01
Yeah, I mean, I think you have to forget everything you know. I think that in some ways we become, we can become arrogant, right? When when we when we think oh yeah, I've done that. I've done that practice. I've, I know all the steps, I've done the advanced, you know, 80 day, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. And I think that that becomes a barrier to receiving exactly what you're saying. And I love the visual of the tea cup being completely overflowing and being the wisdom almost being wasted. Because, for me, I think finding new teachers that you resonate with, who may have a different approach, again, to the same subject matter, um, will just open your eyes and instead of, and I think that this is true, especially when we consider ourselves to be experienced teachers, right? If someone teaches you a technique, you've done that technique for 20 years, you know that it works. And then someone else shares a similar technique or technique with the same name, but it's different. And then there's like this part of us that's like, that's not the right way to teach that. Right? Because, because that's how we've been schooled to do that.
Jivana Heyman 00:24:29
That's what my mind says all time.
Tracee Stanley 00:24:31
Is that there's only one way, right, to do it. And so if you just soften and come in with,okay, let me pretend that this is the first time that I'm doing this practice. And then let me receive the practice and let me experience what happens. I was lucky enough to be in training with a teacher who would teach a practice. And then they would you would say, okay, I got this, I know how to do Prana Dharana. And then the next time you would study with them, they would teach, okay, we're going to do Prana Dharana. And it would be different. And so whether it was the practice that they were doing started to inform the practice of how they were sharing it, or that they were getting more deeper instruction from their own teacher and then sharing that the practice was evolving. It was shifting and changing. So I think for me, I have a little bit more flexibility in the thinking of, oh, you're doing it right, or you're doing it wrong. It's like, oh, this is a different new way to do this. Let me try it and see what works for me.
Jivana Heyman 00:25:53
I totally resonate with that. I mean, I've definitely had that happen. You know, because I definitely was immersed in a tradition, and just, that's all I did. And I was trained that that's it, you, you dig one deep well, and you don't go and dig many wells. And so I was like, always very critical of people that were just kind of doing everything. And that's kind of a very Western thing too, just like try everything. But I feel like you're making an important point, which is that, especially for teachers, and for me, I can say, for myself, I've found more recently listening, well learning from people like you and all the other amazing people that I feel connected with, I just, it's so powerful. And it actually what it does, it reminds me often of some of the things I had originally found, you know, I think that's part of it, too. It's not, it's not always like a new way. But it's like, oh, right, I forgot that emphasis or that lesson, that kind of, is such a long journey. And it's so easy to forget some incredibly important moments, you know, or teachings along the way. And so I don't think they have to be opposed to each other, this idea of going deep in one path, and also being open to learning from others. I think they're both important, and it's really helped me, I feel like I get to do both things.
Tracee Stanley 00:27:23
Yeah, I agree with that, I would say that. One of the things that we we really tried to do, especially in our Yoga Nidra training is to allow people to move into an empowered place and an embodied place of wisdom, where they teach from their own experience, which might be different than the exact words that were used. Right? It's like, instead of parroting the words that may not even resonate with you, actually, like sharing from your embodied experience. And that becomes a transmission. For me, it's a constant learning, because at the end of Yoga Nidra training or the end of meditation teacher training, I listened to all of the practices, like part of the, you know, final is that you deliver a practice, and I listened to the practice, and then I give one on one feedback to the teachers. And it's, I learned so much, like, when I'm listening to their meditations, it's like, wow, I would have never imagined this way of teaching the same technique. But this is coming through. And it is just so beautiful. So I get to be a student.
Jivana Heyman 00:28:43
I get that too in all my trainings, I mean, especially well, even online, but especially in person when I used to lead the Accessible Yoga Training. And we would do like, let's find a variation of this pose. And it's like, I would think at this point, I'd seen any possible variation that every pose, and yet every time, I would think, wow, I never thought of that. Like, it just just blew my mind, where people can come up with. Creativity. And you know, that's, that's a big part for me as a practice. I just, I could talk to you forever. And I don't want to take up too much of your time. But I just want to say now, that I'm, I love you and your work and so grateful. I mean, your new book is incredible.
Tracee Stanley 00:29:27
Oh, thank you so much.
Jivana Heyman 00:29:28
I get to read a lot of these, like I get people asked me to write blurbs and things for them. And I mean, usually, you know, I'm always excited and interested in someone's work. But what you've done, I feel is really special. I mean, this book is like, I feel like what you've done is you've given so many practices, like actual practices that are, again, going back to the same idea of both accessible and quote, "advanced." I mean, they're both deep and reachable at the same time. Like they're just really basic things. Try this, try this. Try this, like just so many offerings. And it's so interesting, because I find that most of most of these books on Yoga, either will give a lot of Asana or just talk about the rest. It's always narrative. It's just talking and like your, your the breadth of your practices around these subtle practice. Just blew my mind honestly, really
Tracee Stanley 00:30:32
That means a lot coming from you. It really does. You know, I've been fortunate to have several teachers in my life who have given me practices and many practices over time. But there's several that I feel like, if I were not to be here tomorrow, I would want. This is like the time capsule of practices that I feel are like the ones that have helped me and the students that I've had the honor to be with, the most transformation. And so, thank you for seeing that. Because I do, I'm excited for this book, The Luminous Self, to come.
Jivana Heyman 00:31:23
Oh, my gosh, I mean, I just, I'm too excited about it. Like, honestly, like, I'm embarrassed. I'm not usually like that, like, fan a fan like this. I mean, seriously, I'm telling you, I mean, I like your first first book, but to me, this is a whole different world. I don't know, I was just...I think what it is for me is that you, you basically just get right to the heart of the matter. You know, and I feel like that's not often the case. That's not often the case.
Tracee Stanley 00:32:04
I appreciate hearing that. Because I think that that is a result of me being so introverted, that I've learned to be very succinct. And, and kind of like, let's get to the point.
Jivana Heyman 00:32:18
Right? I mean, The Luminous Self, even the name is like, that's it, right? You're just saying, right, the light that's within us, and how do we connect there? I mean, it's just...
Tracee Stanley 00:32:29
I'm so happy to hear you say this, because this was the first book that I had a book proposal for, before Radiant Rest. And I feel like I needed to go through the journey of Radiant Rest. Yeah, it'd be able to come back to that book proposal that was written, you know, three years ago, to really be able to honor those practices and share them in a way that hopefully, they can be received and honored also by those who are going to practice them.
Jivana Heyman 00:33:04
So thank you. Yeah, thanks for that book. And for this. Thank you again for your time and your wisdom and for sharing with me so generously. Yeah, anything else you want to share?
Tracee Stanley 00:33:19
No, I'm excited for for you and your new book and all of the wisdom coming forward. And all the work that you do is so so important. So I'm glad to be on the planet with you at this particular time, because I think these things are needed. Thank you.
Jivana Heyman 00:33:39
Thanks, Tracee.
Jivana Heyman 00:33:40
(OUTRO) Thanks, again for being here. I really appreciate your support. And I hope you'll consider getting my book, The Teacher's Guide To Accessible Yoga. It's available wherever you buy books. My hope is that the book will provide additional support for you in your teaching journey. For me, I always need to have a community of teachers around me to learn from to inspire me to keep me in check. And I hope we can do that for each other. So thanks again for being here. All right, take care. Bye.
